Author Topic: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld  (Read 36896 times)

jbanes

  • Posts: 86
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2019, 03:23:47 pm »
It seems that emulating N64 on these generic processors is a virtually impossible mission.

It's not a processor problem. The N64 used a MIPS processor same as the RG350. Except the RG350's processor runs 10x faster. (93.75MHz -> 1GHz)

The real issue comes down to the GPU architecture. The GPU on the N64 used a shared memory architecture with the CPU. Developers were able to take full advantage of this, trading off processing between the CPU and GPU without having to schedule copies to the GPU.

The problem is that modern architectures separate the CPU memory and GPU memory. Data has to be scheduled to copy between these memory spaces, typically over the PCI bus. This separation is typically enforced even with current shared memory architectures in order to simplify the programming model and ensure memory protection.

There's a writeup on LibRetro on how they're using Vulkan to finally solve this:

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/first-ever-revolutionary-n64-vulkan-emulator-coming-soon-only-for-libretro-parallei/

Don't expect Vulkan on the RG350 any time soon.

Quote
I ask you the question, what would the RG350 need to run N64 well?

It would require a sophisticated understanding of the JZ4770's GPU architecture along with a custom-built emulator that takes advantage of the JZ4770 design. That *might* get us there. The question raised is: Who has time to do this? And would they really be interested in doing something so non-portable?

In some ways it might be easier to build a custom N64 portable device with an appropriate shared memory architecture and an FPGA that emulates the original RDP/Angrylion GPU. It would probably be more expensive than anyone is willing to pay, however. :(

02k0

  • Posts: 79
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2019, 03:39:03 pm »
It seems that emulating N64 on these generic processors is a virtually impossible mission.

It's not a processor problem. The N64 used a MIPS processor same as the RG350. Except the RG350's processor runs 10x faster. (93.75MHz -> 1GHz)

The real issue comes down to the GPU architecture. The GPU on the N64 used a shared memory architecture with the CPU. Developers were able to take full advantage of this, trading off processing between the CPU and GPU without having to schedule copies to the GPU.

The problem is that modern architectures separate the CPU memory and GPU memory. Data has to be scheduled to copy between these memory spaces, typically over the PCI bus. This separation is typically enforced even with current shared memory architectures in order to simplify the programming model and ensure memory protection.

There's a writeup on LibRetro on how they're using Vulkan to finally solve this:

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/first-ever-revolutionary-n64-vulkan-emulator-coming-soon-only-for-libretro-parallei/

Don't expect Vulkan on the RG350 any time soon.

Quote
I ask you the question, what would the RG350 need to run N64 well?

It would require a sophisticated understanding of the JZ4770's GPU architecture along with a custom-built emulator that takes advantage of the JZ4770 design. That *might* get us there. The question raised is: Who has time to do this? And would they really be interested in doing something so non-portable?

In some ways it might be easier to build a custom N64 portable device with an appropriate shared memory architecture and an FPGA that emulates the original RDP/Angrylion GPU. It would probably be more expensive than anyone is willing to pay, however. :(
It's a huge challenge, I'd say an act of faith.  I still prefer to think that someone, incognito, must be working very hard at developing it.
  Personally I would not buy an RG350 just to emulate N64 or PS1, it is usually more beneficial to emulate the other older consoles.

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jbanes

  • Posts: 86
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2019, 04:05:16 pm »
Personally I would not buy an RG350 just to emulate N64 or PS1, it is usually more beneficial to emulate the other older consoles.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the PS1 to emulate well on the RG350. The PS1 architecture is quite a bit more similar to today's architectures and all the controls needed are on the device. Plus it's powerful enough to play all the systems that came before, making it an excellent option for classic gaming on the go.

Unfortunately, we're unlikely to see Sega Saturn emulation anytime soon for a similar reason to the N64. The Saturn is more of a high-performance sprite scaling engine rather than proper 3D hardware. (But dang, did those 2D games look good!) Strangely, Dreamcast emulation may be more feasible.

A similar problem exists with the Atari Jaguar which has a similar architecture to the Sega Saturn. The upshot, however, is that developers didn't know anything about these newfangled multi-processor systems and generally programmed it like it was a Genesis. Many of the games never even initialized the 32-bit RISC processors, opting instead to use the 16 bit processor that was intended to boot the system and coordinate the RISC processors. (Atari didn't exactly help here, providing really poor support to developers.)

Unfortunately, Jaguar emulation is still pretty nascent. Interest in the Jaguar is pretty low to begin with and the community around it can be... interesting. If you've never met Gorf, CEO of selling home-brew copies of Gorf for the Jaguar (not kidding), you haven't lived!  ;D

Reds

  • Posts: 117
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2019, 03:22:32 am »
I would take N64 completely off the table and encourage you to remove it from your expectations, but the majority of PS1 games run quite well on RG-350 and you should focus on that instead as what to expect from this thing.

02k0

  • Posts: 79
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2019, 06:26:58 am »
Personally I would not buy an RG350 just to emulate N64 or PS1, it is usually more beneficial to emulate the other older consoles.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the PS1 to emulate well on the RG350. The PS1 architecture is quite a bit more similar to today's architectures and all the controls needed are on the device. Plus it's powerful enough to play all the systems that came before, making it an excellent option for classic gaming on the go.

Unfortunately, we're unlikely to see Sega Saturn emulation anytime soon for a similar reason to the N64. The Saturn is more of a high-performance sprite scaling engine rather than proper 3D hardware. (But dang, did those 2D games look good!) Strangely, Dreamcast emulation may be more feasible.

A similar problem exists with the Atari Jaguar which has a similar architecture to the Sega Saturn. The upshot, however, is that developers didn't know anything about these newfangled multi-processor systems and generally programmed it like it was a Genesis. Many of the games never even initialized the 32-bit RISC processors, opting instead to use the 16 bit processor that was intended to boot the system and coordinate the RISC processors. (Atari didn't exactly help here, providing really poor support to developers.)

Unfortunately, Jaguar emulation is still pretty nascent. Interest in the Jaguar is pretty low to begin with and the community around it can be... interesting. If you've never met Gorf, CEO of selling home-brew copies of Gorf for the Jaguar (not kidding), you haven't lived!  ;D
I've used PS1 a few times, I think less than 5 times in my life, so maybe that's why I don't care much about PS1 emulation, actually I've had more experiences with PS2, too bad the RG350 can't emulate  no PS2 games.
  If he can handle SNES, that's fine.
 Could any wizard engage in this project? Waiting for the RG350 Plus.

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02k0

  • Posts: 79
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2019, 06:29:00 am »
I would take N64 completely off the table and encourage you to remove it from your expectations, but the majority of PS1 games run quite well on RG-350 and you should focus on that instead as what to expect from this thing.
I would choose the RG 350, there is clear evidence that it is preferred.
 It may be that emulating well N64 on this console can be a utopia.

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ace9094

  • Posts: 567
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2019, 06:54:18 am »
Looks great, do we have a confirmed release date and re-seller ?
Dingoo A320, GCW0, RS-97 x2, Revo-K101, RS-90, PSP, GameGadget, New 3DS 128GB, PS Vita 200GB, RS-45, Gamebox Advance and a few other obscure devices

02k0

  • Posts: 79
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2019, 06:55:30 am »
Looks great, do we have a confirmed release date and re-seller ?
https://youtu.be/nzRXx534qHE

More link in the description.

This is [email protected]!

ace9094

  • Posts: 567
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2019, 08:09:59 am »
Looks great, do we have a confirmed release date and re-seller ?
https://youtu.be/nzRXx534qHE

More link in the description.

This is [email protected]!

Thanks Order :) 20 - 40 days delivery

Anyone have one already?
Dingoo A320, GCW0, RS-97 x2, Revo-K101, RS-90, PSP, GameGadget, New 3DS 128GB, PS Vita 200GB, RS-45, Gamebox Advance and a few other obscure devices

DieterLaser

  • Posts: 48
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2019, 03:54:31 pm »
@exorio
so what do you think? is it finally the time to get blood on one of those devices? :) i remember you complaining about missing control options. with the rg350 you could use the left dpad or stick for walking, right stick for looking around. and the 2 L and R buttons for jumping, shooting, changing the weapon and strafing. and one button for ducking

ace9094

  • Posts: 567
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #130 on: September 30, 2019, 10:59:34 am »
 found it MUCH cheaper here - https://retrogame300.com/products/rg350

Is this legit ?
Dingoo A320, GCW0, RS-97 x2, Revo-K101, RS-90, PSP, GameGadget, New 3DS 128GB, PS Vita 200GB, RS-45, Gamebox Advance and a few other obscure devices

gameblabla

  • Posts: 1220
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2019, 11:02:57 am »
found it MUCH cheaper here - https://retrogame300.com/products/rg350

Is this legit ?
It got delayed up to mid october on that website and they said that all RG-350 were backordered apparently, same as Aliexpress.
Though some people got their RG-300 from that website, so yeah, you can order it from that if aliexpress does not have them anymore.

sirdrak

  • Posts: 14
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2019, 12:28:03 pm »
Mine is here now  :)






A quick video testing Crash Bandicoot 2 on the PSX emu:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ktPN7dDIo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ktPN7dDIo</a>

1876

  • Posts: 14
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2019, 01:22:09 pm »
sirdrak, where did you order from, and does the right stick get in the way when using the b-button?

sirdrak

  • Posts: 14
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #134 on: September 30, 2019, 01:32:46 pm »
sirdrak, where did you order from, and does the right stick get in the way when using the b-button?

My order is from Aliexpress' Anbernic official store, here: https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4000112234837.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.c36263c0dveHwZ

Surprinsingly, the right stick doesn't get in the way and i can play confortably. Very good feelings with the console...

1876

  • Posts: 14
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2019, 02:10:14 pm »
Good to hear, cheers for the info. :)

Panja

  • Posts: 172
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2019, 02:37:35 pm »
Hello everyone.
   Another retro handheld console came out.You can choose one more for the retro handheld console. We are about to sell the GKD350 retro handheld console. Performance is higher than RG350.

Any news on the GKD350?
When will it be available?
Please tell us more about the processor, maybe some pictures?
What will be the price?

iball

  • Posts: 79
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2019, 03:57:52 pm »
Hello everyone.
   Another retro handheld console came out.You can choose one more for the retro handheld console. We are about to sell the GKD350 retro handheld console. Performance is higher than RG350.

Any news on the GKD350?
When will it be available?
Please tell us more about the processor, maybe some pictures?
What will be the price?

How can the "performance is higher than RG350" on the GDK350 when they both use the same exact chipset?

jbanes

  • Posts: 86
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2019, 04:21:58 pm »
How can the "performance is higher than RG350" on the GDK350 when they both use the same exact chipset?
The GDK350 supposedly uses the JZ4780 (1.2GHz), which is a generation later than the JZ4770 (1.0GHz) used by the RG350. The JZ4780 supposedly includes a more powerful GPU (PowerVR vs. Vivante G850) and twice as much L1 & L2 cache as the JZ4770.

Basically, the JZ4780 is the most bad-ass MIPS chip that Ingenic makes. It's also a chip we've not seen in production since the only known use back in 2014; An SBC "creator" board competing with the Raspberry Pi. This lack of chips and software support in the wild suggests the GKD350 claims are a bit on the outlandish side. Love to see them ship the chip, but I'll believe it when I see it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 06:17:03 pm by jbanes »

Nikojiro

  • Posts: 219
Re: Bring on the RG-350 (jz4770 based) handheld
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2019, 06:12:14 pm »
Interesting, this device might be interesting, then.