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Other Portable Consoles => GPD Windows Devices => Topic started by: kendyzhu777 on December 18, 2015, 02:32:47 am

Title: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 18, 2015, 02:32:47 am
Hey~guys,How do you think the windows handheld device?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 18, 2015, 02:57:59 am
Yes please...and I want the 2nd prototype design.

And without analogue sticks the 3rd one is useless .
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 18, 2015, 03:10:48 am
YESS!! number two please!

Do make it x86 not arm!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 18, 2015, 03:15:35 am
I thought Wondows is only x86??
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: MilezAhead on December 18, 2015, 03:36:41 am
Pretty please number 2. Would buy immediately if I can play steam games on the go.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 18, 2015, 03:46:26 am
Atom processor?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on December 18, 2015, 04:23:22 am
It's a shame there aren't any portables besides the OpenPandora that have a keyboard. If GPD has said screw it to the size and thrown a keyboard in the middle it of the XD controls it would have absolutely brilliant. I've seen some very slim mini keyboards they could have easily integrated into the case. I have one of these (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZLVJ9Tj5IyA/maxresdefault.jpg) and popped it open and the board is super slim.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 18, 2015, 04:48:03 am
Hey everyone, if this dream becomes reality then we might need to move this topic elsewhere :D
Atm, GPD is a sub section under Android General Discussions.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 18, 2015, 07:29:44 am
Like the first one (maybe swap the left analog stick and dpad around) only with a full mini keyboard in between the dpad and right stick.

Although everybody is asking for the second one that would be a disaster as your thumbs would be in an awkward position due to how close the buttons and dpad are to the edges.

If you can't make it comfortable with a keyboard then maybe omit the keyboard or use a slightly larger shell.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on December 18, 2015, 01:56:01 pm
I would buy #2 if it was Atom (Intel) and not ARM.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 18, 2015, 02:12:18 pm
I thought Wondows is only x86??

Also has an arm version :o
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on December 18, 2015, 02:54:44 pm
The first one I guess. It all really depends on the physical dimensions though. I'd be happy with a similar form factor to the GPD XD since I don't really care about a keyboard. The main things I'd want for a windows gaming handheld is guaranteed x-input support so it's hassle free as is reasonably possible and hdmi output so I can work on a big screen when sorting out game settings, setting up emulators and other desktop things.
The only other important thing I can think of at the moment is that it can support as high a microsd as possible so since PC games tend to take up a lot of space.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 18, 2015, 04:09:05 pm
The first one I guess. It all really depends on the physical dimensions though. I'd be happy with a similar form factor to the GPD XD since I don't really care about a keyboard. The main things I'd want for a windows gaming handheld is guaranteed x-input support so it's hassle free as is reasonably possible and hdmi output so I can work on a big screen when sorting out game settings, setting up emulators and other desktop things.
The only other important thing I can think of at the moment is that it can support as high a microsd as possible so since PC games tend to take up a lot of space.

Yup, Xinput is the most necessary thing. Might seem obvious but Chinese companies have a habit of missing important details. Absolute minimum internal storage should be 32gb too as Windows takes up a few gb and the games can be huge.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wisausnk on December 18, 2015, 04:15:28 pm
Definitly the Nr. 2 but you have to work on the Screen and Backlight quality. Better make it a bit more expensive and Quality wise better...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on December 18, 2015, 04:31:09 pm
The first one I guess. It all really depends on the physical dimensions though. I'd be happy with a similar form factor to the GPD XD since I don't really care about a keyboard. The main things I'd want for a windows gaming handheld is guaranteed x-input support so it's hassle free as is reasonably possible and hdmi output so I can work on a big screen when sorting out game settings, setting up emulators and other desktop things.
The only other important thing I can think of at the moment is that it can support as high a microsd as possible so since PC games tend to take up a lot of space.

Yup, Xinput is the most necessary thing. Might seem obvious but Chinese companies have a habit of missing important details.

Yup It's amazing how things that seem obvious when you're invested in an ecosystem never occur to others.
I saw that the original Disgaea is getting a PC port and from the screenshots it looks like its going to be Direct input which is crazy for a port coming out in 2016.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 18, 2015, 04:41:31 pm
The second one is probably the superior design, but you have to take other things into account such as size and battery life. I'm currently thrilled to see GPD adopting user suggestions, but I have to wait and see the full specs of their device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: postexitus on December 18, 2015, 05:15:03 pm
2nd design is the best. But needs touchpad support as well, if we want this to replace our laptops.

It definitely needs a keyboard, I wouldn't need a laptop anymore if it had keyboard and touchpad support. One thing that would be awesome is to mimick Ps3 bluetooth keyboard's mouse behaviour. The Keys are flattish (like blackberry curve 9900) but they are also a touchpad if you swipe your fingers across. This would be the killer laptop replacement.

Also, I wouldn't mind having the option to run android on it. Or just put the keyboard into the existing GPD XD, I don't care about windows.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on December 18, 2015, 07:14:20 pm
Most probably they will end using cherrytrail z8300 or z8500 and windows 10. Perhaps dual boot with android 5.1 like some other intel tablets do,
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 18, 2015, 07:26:36 pm
according to youtube, a z8500 would mean games like fallout new vegas, gta V and the like would be kind of playable actually. That would be nice in a 5 inch handheld. "XD"
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 18, 2015, 07:46:41 pm
according to youtube, a z8500 would mean games like fallout new vegas, gta V and the like would be kind of playable actually. That would be nice in a 5 inch handheld. "XD"

That's assuming it will be a 5'' handheld. I'm assuming they'll buff it up to 7'' or greater to accommodate everything - but it'll be totally sweet if they didn't.

Also, Android / Windows ARM dual boot FTW.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Kaimega on December 18, 2015, 07:51:56 pm
Make it a linux or Android thing and you got a sale from me, #2 specifically ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on December 18, 2015, 08:02:32 pm
I wouldn't like a 7 inch screen of it meant a tablet design instead of a clamshell.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on December 18, 2015, 09:45:09 pm
according to youtube, a z8500 would mean games like fallout new vegas, gta V and the like would be kind of playable actually. That would be nice in a 5 inch handheld. "XD"

That's assuming it will be a 5'' handheld. I'm assuming they'll buff it up to 7'' or greater to accommodate everything - but it'll be totally sweet if they didn't.

Also, Android / Windows ARM dual boot FTW.

If they use a cherrutrail is x86, like intel baytrail tablets, no ARM.

As far as I know, they want to use the same mold as XD but without screen black borders so they can include a 5,5" screen at 720p. But I suppose GPD will try different options or perhaps they use even both 5 and 7 inch, like XD and q9.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 18, 2015, 11:27:46 pm
according to youtube, a z8500 would mean games like fallout new vegas, gta V and the like would be kind of playable actually. That would be nice in a 5 inch handheld. "XD"

That's assuming it will be a 5'' handheld. I'm assuming they'll buff it up to 7'' or greater to accommodate everything - but it'll be totally sweet if they didn't.

Also, Android / Windows ARM dual boot FTW.

If they use a cherrutrail is x86, like intel baytrail tablets, no ARM.

As far as I know, they want to use the same mold as XD but without screen black borders so they can include a 5,5" screen at 720p. But I suppose GPD will try different options or perhaps they use even both 5 and 7 inch, like XD and q9.

Did someone at GPD leak all this interesting information ? :O
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on December 19, 2015, 05:49:15 am
Would love the second design, with some tweaks for ergonomics. Also if that keyboard is well designed and easy to use, that'd be swell. If they can get a Cherry Trail to work with more than 2 GB RAM while also pricing this similarly to or LESS than the Linx Vision, I'll be all over this.
Though, any chance that the Moga Hero's sticks could be used? They're bigger than the Vita's sticks at the base, but they still seem pretty small AND they have clicking L3 and R3. Just wondering if that were possible. Perhaps using a super low profile stick cap like what's on the Tapwave Zodiac or the GP2X CAANOO?

Now then....could this be my chance to finally play Vindictus and Tera Online on a portable?

EDIT: There's something I've been wondering. A physical keyboard would be the best, but I have to wonder if there's enough room for a real, USEABLE physical keyboard in the space indicated. I have an idea that might not be ideal for everyone, but what if you guys put in  a second screen in that area instead? That screen could then be used to display a keyboard (preferably with a vibration option) in whatever layout the player chooses; perhaps it could even used as a trackpad area when not in keyboard mode or could be used as an extra monitor for displaying external information in games like flight simulators or something. Of course it'd be a smaller screen than the main one and I suspect it could be lower resolution to save costs, but I just wonder if that could be an option.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on December 19, 2015, 07:42:23 am
according to youtube, a z8500 would mean games like fallout new vegas, gta V and the like would be kind of playable actually. That would be nice in a 5 inch handheld. "XD"

That's assuming it will be a 5'' handheld. I'm assuming they'll buff it up to 7'' or greater to accommodate everything - but it'll be totally sweet if they didn't.

Also, Android / Windows ARM dual boot FTW.

If they use a cherrutrail is x86, like intel baytrail tablets, no ARM.

As far as I know, they want to use the same mold as XD but without screen black borders so they can include a 5,5" screen at 720p. But I suppose GPD will try different options or perhaps they use even both 5 and 7 inch, like XD and q9.

Did someone at GPD leak all this interesting information ? :O

Yep, their main developer. But it's just a plan they have, I don't knoe yet if they will do it or not, but it's in their planning at least.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 19, 2015, 10:45:35 am
If they use a cherrutrail is x86, like intel baytrail tablets, no ARM.

As far as I know, they want to use the same mold as XD but without screen black borders so they can include a 5,5" screen at 720p. But I suppose GPD will try different options or perhaps they use even both 5 and 7 inch, like XD and q9.
Well, that's interesting. If they can both use x86 and the previous template it'll sure bump the XD2 a couple of notches up in my opinion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on December 19, 2015, 11:05:12 am
(http://www.astrogle.com/images/2014/09/number-21.png)(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c5/17/1f/c5171ff68e2b631f40afd8eb09a4abf2.jpg)(http://www.thecompliancecenter.com/img_temp/decals/numbers/dc2_hi.gif)(http://images.clipartpanda.com/number-2-clipart-red-rounded-square-with-number-2-md.png)(https://www.missionmanager.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/red-number-2.jpg)

Number 2 please, right now!

(why not just post this under the GPD account?  :-\)

1. Get rid of the camera, who is gonna use that really?
2. Ensure the screen is as big as possible.
3. 4 shoulder buttons please!!!!!!!!
4. Keep it white, white things are gorgeous. Got enough black devices..
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 19, 2015, 11:25:40 am
about the designs, i agree with most of comment that the second alternative is the best of what did you showed (but i think the first one may be better if there is a good implementation), but i have some suggestions.

i really don?t see that a keyboard is needed on this device. any keyboard you put there will be small, and their usage will be casual.
i read messages from people that they want to play old games that requires keyboard.
sincerelly, if you want to play any game that requires keyboard, in any case will be the best alternative.
you must focus on the main goal of this device, to give a windows device for play most of games that requires joystick.

maybe GPD can consider on improve their mapper, and adding keymapping too. I mean, opening the mapper (with gamepad icon) may you can configuer what you want to do with each control.
maybe, you can assign keys (from standard keyboard) to controls
games that need keyboard for playing, don?t have joystick support, then when you playing using a keyboard, really will not use the joystick controls.

maybe, GPD can include reduced keyboard schemma, not a complete keyboard layout.
considering this, then maybe the first alternative looks interesting as concept (but i prefer to keep the current analog layout)

i think adding a numeric pad with some extra buttons may give a good improvement for adding keyboard funcions to the device.

in general speaking, if you need to write something, you can use the on screen keyboard without problems. Is not the most comfortable way, but is practical.
Then, you can use the numeric pad, but keeping the same as the keymapper that i mentioned, this keypad may be configurable. You can setup actions (keys, etc) for each key of this numeric pad.

the final layout/setup will be a device that will be capable of adding keyboard support for most games, using all the buttons and controls of the device.
As example of common keyboard layout may be:
Left stick: WASD
right stick: IJKL
DPAD: Arrow keys
A: Control
B: Space
X: Alt
Y: Shift
L1: Q
R1: E
L2: Z
R2: C
Select: ESC
Start: Enter

And numeric keypad with some assignments (or let the numeric layout)

all this may be configured from the keymapping tool.

And consider that most of keyboard based games, don't need the full layout of the keyboard for playing... and if there is some games that need, well, in any case will not be comfortable to be played with a mini-keyboard... and this device will be an all-terrain gaming device, but this don?t mean that will be capable on playing ALL kind of games.
again, the focus of this device is to play games with joystick support. any other game will be an extra (in my oppinion)

and, in my opinion, i prefer a better DPAD than a full keyboard layout on the device. I really want a GPD-Q9 DPAD implemented on this device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 19, 2015, 12:15:21 pm
I don't think that's correct, Deen0X. Many older PC games have an esoteric layout or require more than just the WASD keys - not to mention older adventure games, where you have to type in you commands.
If they're going for an x86 CPU, a keyboard is a must-have for people who might use this device for a bit of text editing or coding on-the-go or whatever.

Speaking of x86, I think putting a Core M in it instead of an Atom will boost its performance greatly, but that may impact its price tag and its battery life slightly. But I think it's an option worth considering, seeing as it will be able to run the more advanced emulators (Dolphin and PCSX2) if it has a Core M 5Y10.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on December 19, 2015, 12:24:30 pm
Core M is much better, but I don't think GPD will make a 300 bucks device (as a minimum), so my guess is that they will choose the lowest cost possible, but who knows....

I must confess a Windows handheld is not too much of my interest. I have a intel baytrail tablet with windows and android and I use it on android only because for me it lags like hell in windows, and I don't get used to windows touch interface under windows. I practicaly don't play PC games so for me with mu current XD I'm fine.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 19, 2015, 01:06:26 pm
I don't think that's correct, Deen0X. Many older PC games have an esoteric layout or require more than just the WASD keys - not to mention older adventure games, where you have to type in you commands.
If they're going for an x86 CPU, a keyboard is a must-have for people who might use this device for a bit of text editing or coding on-the-go or whatever.

Speaking of x86, I think putting a Core M in it instead of an Atom will boost its performance greatly, but that may impact its price tag and its battery life slightly. But I think it's an option worth considering, seeing as it will be able to run the more advanced emulators (Dolphin and PCSX2) if it has a Core M 5Y10.

ok, i understand, but my point is that maybe this kind of games are not suitable to be played on this kind of devices.
do you really think playing games that require to input commands by keyboard, will be comfortable to be played with a physical micro-keyboard?
I really doubt.
i think, for these kind of games may be better choice a 7" devices, with a better size keyboard. But of course, 7" in a GPD-XD form factor is something... complicated to imagine.

as i mentioned, i think the main focus must be games with joystick support.  Any other implementation will be only a "plus" to the device in my opinion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 19, 2015, 04:42:32 pm
as i mentioned, i think the main focus must be games with joystick support.  Any other implementation will be only a "plus" to the device in my opinion.

Exactly.

Also to GPD, please do not sacrifice comfort in order to put a keyboard on the device. A keyboard would be great but it has to be secondary to the gamepad controls, although everybody seems to prefer the second design it would wreck your thumbs. The XD controls are fine where they are, they shouldn't be any closer to the edges of the device as they are positioned where your thumbs naturally fall.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 19, 2015, 05:44:33 pm
I don't think that's correct, Deen0X. Many older PC games have an esoteric layout or require more than just the WASD keys - not to mention older adventure games, where you have to type in you commands.
If they're going for an x86 CPU, a keyboard is a must-have for people who might use this device for a bit of text editing or coding on-the-go or whatever.

Speaking of x86, I think putting a Core M in it instead of an Atom will boost its performance greatly, but that may impact its price tag and its battery life slightly. But I think it's an option worth considering, seeing as it will be able to run the more advanced emulators (Dolphin and PCSX2) if it has a Core M 5Y10.

ok, i understand, but my point is that maybe this kind of games are not suitable to be played on this kind of devices.
do you really think playing games that require to input commands by keyboard, will be comfortable to be played with a physical micro-keyboard?
I really doubt.
i think, for these kind of games may be better choice a 7" devices, with a better size keyboard. But of course, 7" in a GPD-XD form factor is something... complicated to imagine.

as i mentioned, i think the main focus must be games with joystick support.  Any other implementation will be only a "plus" to the device in my opinion.

Agreed. Or maybe make the keyboard more micro with only some keys. For example, arrow keys are not needed if you have a dpad. I also don't see any reason for an enter key for example. Basically in most games you can remap keys, so if you just added say 8 keyboard style keys they could be larger and you still have an additional 8 keys to use. :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Cos.tan is Sin on December 20, 2015, 08:50:25 am
I am being lurking around this forum for a while and I am interested in whether a secondary touchscreen instead of the keyboard would be plausible (for the second design)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 20, 2015, 10:08:37 am
my setup:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UJuIrVFBaRI/VnZrKyH1skI/AAAAAAAAWos/V23eWftl8h8/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_2.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NRDINSSvjFs/VnZrK849_zI/AAAAAAAAWos/QZ4lqdrzVzo/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Bottom.jpg)
track pads for analog trigger buttons. These trackpads can be disabled from some button or config.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dGhStKrhOgU/VnZrKzx5HAI/AAAAAAAAWos/FEModv9YSlM/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Back%252520Design_2.jpg)
Fn buttons for modify the behavior of the buttons when working as keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 20, 2015, 01:04:05 pm
(https://www.missionmanager.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/red-number-2.jpg)

Number 2 please, right now!

(why not just post this under the GPD account?  :-\)

1. Get rid of the camera, who is gonna use that really?
2. Ensure the screen is as big as possible.
3. 4 shoulder buttons please!!!!!!!!
4. Keep it white, white things are gorgeous. Got enough black devices..

Agreed.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 20, 2015, 02:37:01 pm
my setup:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UJuIrVFBaRI/VnZrKyH1skI/AAAAAAAAWos/V23eWftl8h8/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_2.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NRDINSSvjFs/VnZrK849_zI/AAAAAAAAWos/QZ4lqdrzVzo/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Bottom.jpg)
track pads for analog trigger buttons. These trackpads can be disabled from some button or config.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dGhStKrhOgU/VnZrKzx5HAI/AAAAAAAAWos/FEModv9YSlM/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Back%252520Design_2.jpg)
Fn buttons for modify the behavior of the buttons when working as keyboard.

don?t forget the spaceship launch pad, kitchen sink, and automatic lawn mower in there!

No but seriously, I figure that?s a bit too crowded.

I would like the XD design (EXACTLY the XD design) but with less mushy face buttons. Everything else is fine. Please no q9 dpad, it?s too large for the XD shell and breaks easier.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 20, 2015, 02:53:48 pm
well, about DPAD there are lot of opinions.

i really prefer the Q9 DPAD. is the best DPAD i used on any android console, and i really want to get this piece on XD.
current DPAD is ... enough, but not the best choice (and is so small)

and for the rest of the design, i respect the original XD form and layout. simply add some buttons (not so much), biggest screen (rumours mentioned 5.5") and the DPAD. the rest is exactly the same design
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 20, 2015, 03:37:40 pm
The buttons for mouse mode, xinput mode and touch keyboard are great ideas, GPD should include those.
Also a button to switch between Windows and Metro modes as well as a Windows key would be very useful.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 20, 2015, 04:17:51 pm
well, about DPAD there are lot of opinions.

i really prefer the Q9 DPAD. is the best DPAD i used on any android console, and i really want to get this piece on XD.
current DPAD is ... enough, but not the best choice (and is so small)

and for the rest of the design, i respect the original XD form and layout. simply add some buttons (not so much), biggest screen (rumours mentioned 5.5") and the DPAD. the rest is exactly the same design

The bigger scrreen is agree. Yes the Q9 is best dpad not just on android but also vita and 3ds xl included (tough defeating the 3ds XD is not that difficult in most aspects, as the XD has shown), but not very durable. and it sticks out more, making it hard to close the lid.

the XD dpad, at first I hated it fro fighting games and arcade shoot them ups, now I love ti for them. With some getting used to and breaking it in I weave my way trough the bullets :O
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 20, 2015, 07:45:41 pm
I really don't understand the hate for keyboards. They shouldn't take THAT much space.
To support my argument, BlackBerries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Q10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Priv
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Passport

These keyboards can be implemented between the buttons without them taking too much space. Rather than being the traditional keyboard layout, they are a bit more compact - but still offer pretty much the same functionality, which is important if the device will run Windows and have a secondary functionality.
However, I agree that the game controls are the primary function and shouldn't be affected by those additions.

Buttons to switch from Xinput to Dinput are a must, but those can simply replace the current Xbox/PS3 modes on the existing GPD XD.

Also, Deen0X, nice design! I however feel (as a PC gamer) that most of these buttons can be consolidated onto hotkeys on the keyboard, if GPD will follow through with the Windows device. Some of them can prove to be useful, but I feel that by and large they're redundant. Your design is more fitting of an Android console of the same nature.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 20, 2015, 09:27:07 pm
ok, i will try to get more clear speaking (writting)

i'm not against a keyboard itself. My complains are based that playing any widnows keyboard based game will not be "comfortable" in the same way playing on micro-keyboards.

as example, there is my own version of GPD-XD with keyboard (a simple keyboard. there are need to add some keys)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4RJ5VsW6q6E/VncW0Fh3dxI/AAAAAAAAWpE/6jwJue6X1XY/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_Mod_Keyboard%2525201.jpg)

take as example any old FPS game that don?t have joystick support.
these games usuaally have keyboard and mouse support.?
ok, now try to imagine to play this game, that use WASD for move, space for jump, ctrl for fire, etc, etc....
using a microkeyboard, you really will use your thumbs over the keyboard.
you will not be able to move forward (W) and jump (space) and run (alt), for giving an example.
the keyboard layout will not be useful on this situation.

now, imagine playing Starcraft-Warcraft. the most quick way to play these games is using a keyboard... and of course a mouse.
this game don?t have many combo keys that you need to press at the same time, but you need to be fast using the keyboard.
do you think using a micro-keyboard will be comfortable for playing this kind of games? i really doubt.

then, which kind of games you can play using a keyboard? adventures that requires command input.
Ok. based on this kind of games. How much games of this kind can be played, really played, on this device?
i think, there are not so much games of this kind and less people that want to play this kind of games on a device like this.

I agree with Made in China that, "the game controls are the primary function and shouldn't be affected by those additions"

currently the device feels comfortable. yes, i maybe prefer other DPAD, but in general is a good layout of controls.

if GPD can add a keyboard that don?t affect to me based on the current layout, then for me is ok.
I hope GPD, if is adding this Keyboard, add a "keyboard" button for enable/diosable this keyboard. May be "annoying" playing a game, and accidentally press the "ESC" key or any other, and affect the gameplay.


About my design, i posted quick and without explanation. now i want to explain it.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UJuIrVFBaRI/VnZrKyH1skI/AAAAAAAAWos/V23eWftl8h8/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_2.jpg)

The layout is based on current XD layout. I add the GPD-Q9 DPAD, and displaced a little bit between the left stick and the bottom buttons.
Take note that i?m thinking on a dual-os device.
- I put a 3x2 button layout. These buttons are in the same position than current XD have. Only added two buttons and renamed all of them to get a standard layout ABCXYZ
- The DPAD is inline with ABXY buttons
- There are specific WIFI and Bluetooth buttons for enabling/disabling
- VOL- and VOL+ are the same
- Keyboard mapping (see below) and Gamepad(standard touch) mapping
- Control modes: Keyboard, Mouse+Keyboard, Gamepad

The Keyboard mode change the behavior of the controls, and all act as standard keyboard.
This is configurable from software.
for an example of behavior using Keyboard mode may be:
Left derecho = 4 keys (WASD)
Right stick = 4 keys (IJKL)
Game buttons = 6 buttons (ctrl, shift, space, alt, tab, caps)
Triggers =4 buttons (QEZC)
L3 and R3 = 2 buttons (UO)
SELECT y START = 2 buttons(ESC and ENTER)
DPAD = 4 buttons (ARROWS)

(total= 26 keys)

Mouse mode
Will be similar to previous layout (keyboard) but with some modifications:
right stick: mousestick
left stick: mouse wheel (up down) and side wheel (left right)
L2 and R2 will be Left and Right buttons
L3 will be middle button.

Gamepad mode: will configure controls as standard XInput gamepad.

The button bar are only an idea. There are buttons for windows and android OS, and gamepad (select and start)
maybe there are buttons that can work on both OS. (WIN button will work as HOME in android, and Menu button will act as menu in both operating systems. Back button may be ESC in windows)
the central button is the "HOME" button from XBox controller (for opening Steam interface, as example)
all these buttons have magnetic face, for providing the same functionality that current magnetic close. If not possible, then may be on the clean space can be placed these buttons.

There are two Fn (modificators) back
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dGhStKrhOgU/VnZrKzx5HAI/AAAAAAAAWos/FEModv9YSlM/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Back%252520Design_2.jpg)

The Fn1 (left) and Fn2 (right) buttons are similar to front function buttons. Must be a little bit hard to be pressed, to avoid accidental press.

These buttons will change the behavior of the control layout when Keyboard mode is enabled.
As example. i can configure DPAD as arrows when no Fn are pressed.
with Fn1 pressed, may be i can configure 1234 keys
with Fn2 pressed, may be i can configure 5678 keys
with Fn1 and Fn2 pressed, may be i can configure 90,. keys

using this example, and based on the 26 keys of the layout, you can get 26*4 keys to be configured: 104 keys in total.

Except for games that need to write command on screen (because will be uncomfortable to write, basically), any other game that requires keyboard for playing you can configure with this method.


Another way to implement keyboard is using JoytoKey (http://joytokey.net/en/). With this, you can configure your gamepad as standard keyboard too.


Finally, i added two trackpads at the bottom of the device
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NRDINSSvjFs/VnZrK849_zI/AAAAAAAAWos/QZ4lqdrzVzo/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Bottom.jpg)

these trackapdas can be enabled from some option on the device (or specific button may be).
When actives, give analog values for Triggers (for racing or any other game that need analog values)

Zalu2!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kfchow on December 20, 2015, 09:37:00 pm
Personally all i care about is that the buttons are mapped as keypresses rather than a joystick.  Reason being is that you can then map to Taito Type X system easy.  True you can also use something like joy2key but call me old fashioned nothing beats keypresses.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 20, 2015, 09:48:27 pm
Yes, Yes , Yess.   And absolutely yes for the keyboard.  It's absolutely needed especially for old PC, Amiga etc etc emulation.
Something that's lacking in all current emu gaming handhelds to date apart from the Pandora. Plus if you want to run windows apps , your going to need the keyboard.

I would have the controls in a line at the top like the Pandora which works very well.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 20, 2015, 10:21:22 pm
Many PC games require the keyboard, especially if they're old. Even if it's an awful keyboard, it's still a must - adventure games were raised as a point here. It's just a point of expanding the system's capabilities. But also, it's important for multi purpose reasons - typing is integral to all devices on the market, whether it be for internet, texting or just typing.

Also, for FPS games, you can use the joystick controls. Even DOOM supports joystick controls, and more complex games (like Deus Ex, or flight simulators) will only benefit from more buttons, even though the primary controls will still be the joypad.
That's also the reasons why I'm not insisting of arrow keys on the micro keyboard, they are redundant.

Anyway, I don't wish to offend, but I think I understand the broader spectrum of PC games better than most on this forum, simply because I've been a PC gamer ever since I was 2 years old. Games simply benefit from the versatility of the keyboard and the accuracy of the mouse, but ergonomics and smoothness are superior on a controller - that's why, if you want to increase your device portfolio, just add a keyboard. I think the ergonomics of the GPD XD are fine as they are, so they don't really necessitate an improvement in the immediate term.

Also, regarding Joy2Key, it reminds me of the AlphaGrip:
http://www.alphagrips.com/
It's simply cumbersome and warrants unwanted input from the user. It's not a practical design.
We had a saying in the army: "What isn't simple, simply doesn't work" - The more convoluted your design, the less people use it, and it becomes a barrier rather than a tool.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 20, 2015, 11:58:38 pm
I really understand the points of people that want a keyboard, but simply i prefer to be pragmatic.

if GPD will not modify the current design and affect the gameplay, for me no problem

at last, there are some graphics i did now, with some examples of the controls modes i mentioned. (and well, i changed the buttom bar, and add some buttons for these functions)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZoCzlIDD1Pw/Vnc8zERvYlI/AAAAAAAAWpU/EonyzVqFKkQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3.jpg)
The new bottons are:
First line are focussed on gamepad controls: Select, Home and Start
The "Home" is the central button from XBox controller, and is used on some games or interfaces (steam uses for showing the steam panel)
The "cube" icon is simply because i figure GPD will not put the "X" icon from XBox controller.

Next line is multipropouse buttons for both, Android and Windows.
Back button (android) is "ESC" button in Windows
Windows button (Widows) is HOME button in android
Menu button is menu in both operating systems.

Now, in Gamepad mode:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hlvBRoKPW_E/Vnc80-L36yI/AAAAAAAAWpg/fCVihWYq0WE/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_Gamepad.jpg)

Control schemma is a standard XInput gamepad

in Keyboard mode, there may be 4 configurable setups:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Py5I1K8COLk/Vnc84IJDjOI/AAAAAAAAWp8/S5XhciYG4Gk/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_Keyboard_Fn0.jpg)
Without Fn pressed

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lagBF0mdUtY/Vnc84JgSLdI/AAAAAAAAWqE/deuzT1FvOd4/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_Keyboard_Fn1.jpg)
Fn1 pressed

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5cf0Eb8zSww/Vnc84EJC9RI/AAAAAAAAWp4/ywVnTCltUys/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_Keyboard_Fn1_Fn2.jpg)
Fn2 pressed

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nmNNGVvFvI0/Vnc84eHJk5I/AAAAAAAAWqA/vwKevdOrYJQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_Keyboard_Fn2.jpg)
Fn1 & Fn2 pressed

and finally, Mouse mode. This mode is similar to Keyboard, but some controls will be fixed to be mouse:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8KJcUySHLz4/Vnc806SByMI/AAAAAAAAWpk/XSuiWN1w2QU/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_3_MouseKeyboard.jpg)
where left stick (4D Wheel mouse), Rigth stick (Mouse movement), L3 (Middle button), L2 and R2 (Left and right buttons) will be assigned by default to mouse control.

well. this is my last version... for now.

Zalu2!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 21, 2015, 12:40:33 am
@Deen0X

OpenPandora?

(http://www.renegadetaxidermist.com/images/pand_02.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 21, 2015, 12:56:12 am
XDDDDDD

nope, i simply found a cube for adding a random icon. XDDDD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 21, 2015, 12:56:49 am
Deen0X, dude, I feel like I'm always shooting you down, but you've got to agree with me that it's way too complex. I'm not arguing that typical keyboard controls can be mapped to the gamepad, you've certainly proved that - but it's far from practical. As I've mentioned, the fact that the controls are convoluted poses it more as an obstacle rather than a tool.
To further drive my point home, you couldn't Ctrl+C Ctrl+V with your current layout, and there are literally dozens of other macros and shortcuts people are familiar with that simply aren't possible with every implementation.

A BlackBerry keyboard can fit neatly between the d-pad and the face buttons. Why would you want to replace it with macro buttons? And you're replacing it with macro buttons that can EASILY be mapped to a button combo using the keyboard and the existing buttons, like it's always been and people are familiar with. Just Windows Key+Gamepad button and you're toggling between Xinput and Dinput, etc.

It's just making an issue out of a non-issue. It's a Windows device, of course it needs a keyboard.
If it weren't Windows, you could manage - but again - it's more of an addition to an already functional device with the gamepad being included. The only other plausible addition instead of a keyboard is a second touchscreen, and it's not supported by Android at the moment - so I just don't see the point in anything OTHER than a keyboard.

Also, a 3*2 face buttons arrangement would be neat, for those MAME fighters. But I think those functions have been replaced by the shoulder buttons, mostly, and it isn't the most ergonomic of designs. Still, it's a point to consider.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 21, 2015, 01:38:15 am
The point isn't to make it a PC though, it's to make a Windows gaming handheld. You don't need keyboard shortcuts as you can long press the touchscreen and scroll down to copy/paste, realistically how often are you going to type on this? If you want a mini PC then I think you're missing the point. A keyboard would be nice but it should never compromise the gamepad layout which the 2nd example GPD posted would definitely do.

I game primarily on PC, I have done for years ever since I first played Doom. I readily accept that some games just aren't gonna work on a Windows handheld as they require a keyboard and mouse, not a small rubber keyboard with a right analog stick (which would get tiresme very quickly) but a proper kb/mouse setup which you only get from a laptop or desktop. Old FPS games which need WASD and a mouse and have no modern zoom function just aren't gonna work. However I know from tablet gaming enough will work just fine to make it more than worthwhile, particularly a lot of last gen games which are designed to work with the XBox360 pad.

I just think although a keyboard would be nice it's not needed - and I actually use a Windows device without a keyboard regularly. The old games which do need one aren't going to be enjoyable with a mini keyboard and no mouse, those small keyboards aren't designed for gaming. Again I've actually used devices with mini keyboards for gaming before, the smallest I'd want to use is Psion S5/Jornada/Viao P size. In fact I'd say if you want to play old Windows games like Deus Ex on an tiny device then get a P Series Viao and a small wireless mouse.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 21, 2015, 02:13:14 am
I don't get the issue. The main gaming controller for FPSes and the like will be the already present gamepad, with the keyboard buttons assigned for less-used functions, such as toggling between weapon groups in Half Life (first thing that popped into my mind).
And you can't deny many older games only support keyboard input, that's why I said that its versatility is key to expanding ANY console base.

And you know what? I'll turn this around. What do macros have to offer that the micro-keyboard doesn't? You're basically getting a mini laptop that's oriented for gaming even more than just a purely-gaming oriented device. Name one improvement that macros have over a keyboard.

Also, don't give me "the keyboard will push the buttons aside", because you have far more space in between the buttons and the d-pad RIGHT NOW to fit a BlackBerry keyboard, which is all I'm saying it needs to be.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Renard on December 21, 2015, 03:34:45 am
Second please!!!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 21, 2015, 09:51:09 am
The point isn't to make it a PC though, it's to make a Windows gaming handheld. You don't need keyboard shortcuts as you can long press the touchscreen and scroll down to copy/paste, realistically how often are you going to type on this? If you want a mini PC then I think you're missing the point. A keyboard would be nice but it should never compromise the gamepad layout which the 2nd example GPD posted would definitely do.

I game primarily on PC, I have done for years ever since I first played Doom. I readily accept that some games just aren't gonna work on a Windows handheld as they require a keyboard and mouse, not a small rubber keyboard with a right analog stick (which would get tiresme very quickly) but a proper kb/mouse setup which you only get from a laptop or desktop. Old FPS games which need WASD and a mouse and have no modern zoom function just aren't gonna work. However I know from tablet gaming enough will work just fine to make it more than worthwhile, particularly a lot of last gen games which are designed to work with the XBox360 pad.

I just think although a keyboard would be nice it's not needed - and I actually use a Windows device without a keyboard regularly. The old games which do need one aren't going to be enjoyable with a mini keyboard and no mouse, those small keyboards aren't designed for gaming. Again I've actually used devices with mini keyboards for gaming before, the smallest I'd want to use is Psion S5/Jornada/Viao P size. In fact I'd say if you want to play old Windows games like Deus Ex on an tiny device then get a P Series Viao and a small wireless mouse.

Agreed with everything you say, altough I have to point out that playing quake 1 and quake 2 on my XD (the android versions) is an absolute joy and works really really well. Left stick = WSAD, it moves me, and right stick = AIM To kill.
R1 to murder, and l2/r2 to switch next/prev weapon.

I think the real problem with this thing is that anything old enough that it''s going to run on this chipset will likely have huge problems with windows 10, or not support widescreen, or both. Headaches!

Which would probably lead to the funny situation that you can play a shitload of old pc games on the XD perfectly and in widescreen, usually remade for controls (tomb raider 1 and 2, gta 3/vice city, half-life, star wars kotor, quake 1/2/3, jedi outcast, jedi academy, max payne, imperium galactica 2, return to castle wolfenstein, hereos of might and magic, baldurs gate, icewind dale all have android versions usually much upgraded from the original in terms of graphics and otherwise authentic, there are more) and a lot of these probably would not work on this windows 10 handheld! If they did they would not support widescreen or the controller.

So ironically, I don?t think this is even going to be an improvement for most "windows" games. The real cool ones which are old enough are often ported so the modern version on android is much , much, much better!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 21, 2015, 10:24:22 am
I don't get the issue. The main gaming controller for FPSes and the like will be the already present gamepad, with the keyboard buttons assigned for less-used functions, such as toggling between weapon groups in Half Life (first thing that popped into my mind).
And you can't deny many older games only support keyboard input, that's why I said that its versatility is key to expanding ANY console base.

And you know what? I'll turn this around. What do macros have to offer that the micro-keyboard doesn't? You're basically getting a mini laptop that's oriented for gaming even more than just a purely-gaming oriented device. Name one improvement that macros have over a keyboard.

Also, don't give me "the keyboard will push the buttons aside", because you have far more space in between the buttons and the d-pad RIGHT NOW to fit a BlackBerry keyboard, which is all I'm saying it needs to be.

That's the point I made though, the older games which need keyboard/mouse input are going to play like ass on a micro keyboard. If you've ever tried to play games on these types of keyboard you'll know this. Also those older FPS games just aren't playable with a right analog for aiming, try the Android port of Half Life on the XD - it's very playable until you get to the parts where there are enemy soldiers who are firing at you from distance and you need to be accurate, ie mouse aiming accurate.
The Quake games are ok as they don't need as much accuracy but games like Deus Ex would be a PITA. Try these games on PS2 if you don't believe me - Half Life and Deus Ex are awful with dual analog pads . Something like the original Far Cry would be much more playable as it has a great "down the sights" mechanic so you can get some much needed accuracy, it makes the target bigger for you and slows down aiming.

I'm not saying a keyboard is a bad idea - I'd prefer one - just don't think that you're going to be gaming or typing with it and having a good experience. I want a device like this for playing my GoG and Steam library however there's games which just need a kb/mouse to play them properly and having a mini keyboard isn't going to fix that.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on December 21, 2015, 10:29:27 am
Personally my own intended use for a device like this would be Japanese ports and indie games. A mini keyboard would be nice for games like undertale which have gamepad support except for one out two buttons. I'm just not confident that they're be able to pull it off without multiple hardware revisions and if prefer not to wait.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 21, 2015, 10:44:58 am
There's a ton of indies I want to play on this, in fact there's games I've held off playing in my Steam/GoG libraries because I prefer playing that style lying on my sofa on a handheld. Couple that with big titles like Tomb Raider reboot, Fallout 3 etc and you've got a great handheld.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Melquiades on December 21, 2015, 12:14:07 pm
This is it. 4:3, screen not completely centered to make room for 6 face buttons saturn style. The rest does not really matter.

(https://www.anony.ws/i/2015/12/21/bullcrap1.jpg)

(https://www.anony.ws/i/2015/12/21/bullcrap2.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on December 21, 2015, 12:32:06 pm
That off-center screen would drive me insane.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 21, 2015, 01:33:03 pm
are the analogs as big as the face buttons? >_<
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Melquiades on December 21, 2015, 01:59:59 pm
Is just a a sketch done in 5-10 minutes. The point is having 4:3 screen, 6 face buttons in Genesis/Saturn fashion. Obviously there are plenty  of mistakes in the pictures.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kfchow on December 21, 2015, 02:49:01 pm
Many PC games require the keyboard, especially if they're old. Even if it's an awful keyboard, it's still a must - adventure games were raised as a point here. It's just a point of expanding the system's capabilities. But also, it's important for multi purpose reasons - typing is integral to all devices on the market, whether it be for internet, texting or just typing.

Also, for FPS games, you can use the joystick controls. Even DOOM supports joystick controls, and more complex games (like Deus Ex, or flight simulators) will only benefit from more buttons, even though the primary controls will still be the joypad.
That's also the reasons why I'm not insisting of arrow keys on the micro keyboard, they are redundant.

Anyway, I don't wish to offend, but I think I understand the broader spectrum of PC games better than most on this forum, simply because I've been a PC gamer ever since I was 2 years old. Games simply benefit from the versatility of the keyboard and the accuracy of the mouse, but ergonomics and smoothness are superior on a controller - that's why, if you want to increase your device portfolio, just add a keyboard. I think the ergonomics of the GPD XD are fine as they are, so they don't really necessitate an improvement in the immediate term.

Also, regarding Joy2Key, it reminds me of the AlphaGrip:
http://www.alphagrips.com/
It's simply cumbersome and warrants unwanted input from the user. It's not a practical design.
We had a saying in the army: "What isn't simple, simply doesn't work" - The more convoluted your design, the less people use it, and it becomes a barrier rather than a tool.

Joy2key is software mapping of joypad buttons to key presses

http://joytokey.net/en/

It's what people use when they build arcade machines from PC parts and they don't have a keyboard encoder like a ipac or jpac.

Works ok for the most part but personally keyboard encoding works for the majority of games especially emulator based.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 21, 2015, 03:15:18 pm
Hey~guys,How do you think the windows handheld device?

All three designs have some problems so...

With GPD XD template make these changes:

1. Move Left Joystick to about where Vol- button is on XD.
2. Move Right Joystick to about where Mapper button is on XD.
3. Move and center Dpad just to the left of where L3 is on XD, and move and center XYBA group to just to the right of where R3 is on XD.
4. Place mini L3 in space above and between Dpad and Left Joystick, and mini R3 in space above and between Right Joystick and XYBA group.
5. Keep onOFF button where it is.
6. Encircle buttons for Vol - , Vol + and Function, Mapper vertical around onOFF button. Try to vertically "wrap" them around the onOff button.
7. Keep speakers where they are on GPD XD.
8. At bottom edge from left to right, place buttons horizontal like this:
Back, Home, raised GPD Logo bar, Select, Start.
9. Add dimples to left and right bottom corners to protect display when lid is closed.

Keyboard can be set into the long, wide empty area under the game controls, and directly above the Back to Start button row. For comfort, the keyboard should NOT stretch all the way to the left and to the right sides of the console, only at most to about 2 centimeters from the edges.

Others:
Make L2 and R2 bigger and extend them closer to L1 and R1.
Bluetooth option.

FIXED text.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 22, 2015, 06:05:28 am
Thanks for your kind concerns!!This three layouts are drawn by a Chinese GPD player!! And now we are still on the design process!!so any kind recommendation,be free to comment here,we will check it oftentimes and consider it as important references.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 22, 2015, 09:10:15 am
Based on 3rd choice (slide keyboard), i designed this another version:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b7_MN1abFfI/VnkRgQ7csMI/AAAAAAAAWqg/q1_ooivKNJc/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_4.1.jpg)

this one, if the device gain only some milimeters of size, then i will be ok with this design.
the keyboard will be more comfortable because have more room for it.
I quit the control modes, because now there is no reason for them. Keyboard mode is the physical slider keyboard. Mouse mode is, the touchscreen.
I keep the new button area, but may be the same that current XD layout have. (select, start, home and back), but i consider there is needed almost one new button: the xbox controller "HOME" button (that is not the same as windows or android "HOME" button), that in my design is the "cube" button.
(http://cdn2.pcadvisor.co.uk/cmsdata/features/3405790/Xbox_guide_button.png)

in general, i really like this design (not because i made, but is for practical and comfortable usage)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SONY on December 22, 2015, 01:00:17 pm
It's going to be pretty thick.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Melquiades on December 22, 2015, 01:35:31 pm
In my opinion, if somebody wants a keyboard so bad for a pad, they should look for other solutions, like minikeyboards with clippers or something like that. Just like the gameklipper for Dualshock 3 or to what 8bitdo has done with their SFC30. If GPD struggles to deliver normal consoles with decent quality at the current pricing, putting a keyboard is a recipe for disaster. Given my own experience I believe 10 out of 50 keys would not work on average.

The best is to keep it simple, costs down and use experience proof designs with the objective of makingsomething usable from a pure gaming perspective, there are plenty of other options available for other uses. And anyway, there will be room for experiments afterwards. If using G7 or Q9 molds the chance to have heating issues, for example, is lower, they should go for it. Keep in mind that what they are doing here is pioneering. This is Windows so, in my opinion extra pennies should go for the internal storage rather than to a keyboard.

If this is done properly, with Xinput controls and integrated x360ce, little else than the big screen mode will be required by most people. I frankly don't see the point. I would rather have a decent quality screen, with proper detection, than a shitty Rii-like keyboard.

Anybody that has used one of those keyboards knows a good screen generates less input errors.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 22, 2015, 01:44:04 pm
Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Melquiades on December 22, 2015, 01:49:14 pm
Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.

Made in China, that is a good idea and compromise. Something like this:

(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/04/xbox-360-qwerty-attachment-.jpg)

Sold as an extra so those not interested can skip the cost, and everybody happy.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 22, 2015, 04:24:22 pm
So, have we come to a consensus, or does anyone have anything else to add?

BTW, each design will have a different price point, so GPD will have to give us an estimate for price point of said design. I'm assuming it'll factor into our (and their) decision making.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 22, 2015, 04:37:44 pm
They could give Martin Riddiford a call and get him to design a proper sliding keyboard...  ;D
(http://www.rugged-portable.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Psion_5mx_side.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on December 22, 2015, 04:41:14 pm
If you mean what are my must haves for me to purchase it. I guess it would be:

Clamshell design
Built in x-input support
HDMI out and bluetooth support for setting up emulators and the like. (Though I guess it would be easy enough to use something like team viewer for this.)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 22, 2015, 05:55:48 pm
In my opinion, if somebody wants a keyboard so bad for a pad, they should look for other solutions, like minikeyboards with clippers or something like that. Just like the gameklipper for Dualshock 3 or to what 8bitdo has done with their SFC30. If GPD struggles to deliver normal consoles with decent quality at the current pricing, putting a keyboard is a recipe for disaster. Given my own experience I believe 10 out of 50 keys would not work on average.

The best is to keep it simple, costs down and use experience proof designs with the objective of makingsomething usable from a pure gaming perspective, there are plenty of other options available for other uses. And anyway, there will be room for experiments afterwards. If using G7 or Q9 molds the chance to have heating issues, for example, is lower, they should go for it. Keep in mind that what they are doing here is pioneering. This is Windows so, in my opinion extra pennies should go for the internal storage rather than to a keyboard.

If this is done properly, with Xinput controls and integrated x360ce, little else than the big screen mode will be required by most people. I frankly don't see the point. I would rather have a decent quality screen, with proper detection, than a shitty Rii-like keyboard.

Anybody that has used one of those keyboards knows a good screen generates less input errors.

Agree with you.
only a note. If you get a compatible XInput device, you don?t need x360ce integration. in my opinion. the best that GPD-XD is setting a XInput driver for windows, and with this gain so much compatibility with many games.

Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.

yes, this is one of my first choices, adding a detachable keyboard that can be selled as accessory

my first idea is adding a full keyboard OVER the device (where are the controls), plugged using some clip mechanism. the main idea is if you're using a keyboard for gaming, then you don?t need joystick.

but, after designing the last alternative, i start thinking is the best way. yes, may be some detachable keyboard, in the same way iphone have their covers with keyboard, i think is a good alternative, even a bluetooth keyboard will be fine.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 22, 2015, 06:21:35 pm
For me there's just something so right about the XD design and layout that I basically just want a Windows version of it with Xinput. I fear that trying to shoehorn a keyboard in there would compromise what is so good about it.

I do think the three buttons would be a good idea though - one to select xinput mode, one to select mouse mode and one to bring up a touch keyboard. That last one is vital as Windows doesn't handle touch keyboards as well as Android and iOS in traditional Windows mode (not Metro), when you select a text box for instance you have to manually bring up the keyboard by selecting it in the taskbar which would be painful on a ~5" screen.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 22, 2015, 09:41:12 pm
For me a keyboard would be a must.  I wouldn't buy it without one. It would just be too gimped for me without it.

You need a keyboard to play old pc games (including amiga emus etc).  A Lot of these games used the function keys and numerous keys on the keyboard.   While you could make some ridiculous mappings for them all, it would be a nightmare trying to remember where they all are.

You also need a keyboard if you plan on running any windows apps which require a keyboard - which is most. 


There already is a precedence for a device with both gaming controls and a keyboard, and it works great.    The keyboard was added to it specifically so that it can fill the gap to cater for those who wanted to play old pc games. And it does it well.  Unfortunately this is a gap that still exists on the Android/Windows handheld game console side.  There are tons of options for a handheld without a keyboard, and they are all limited in the same way.  It's time something took a step forward and set itself ahead of most of the pack.  It would be that edge in my opinion that would generate a lot more sales for GPD as it adds a whole bunch of potential customers wanting that keyboard for various reasons.


The XD is bigger than the Pandora and thus has more room for a keyboard - the XD is 15mm wider and a bit deeper.  But just as an example, here is a the Pandora layout again. 

(http://socialbarrel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/pandora.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 22, 2015, 10:07:33 pm
but pandora layout is not comfortable, almost not as GPD-XD

I think we are loosing the focus.

what we want is a gamepad with a screen, running windows on it.
simply.

the comfort for playing with this gamepad must be the main goal.

maybe a device like this is not suitable for playing old keyboard based games.
and... about this, anybody can mention titles that need a keyboard to play? is for curious really, because as i know, many old titles can be played with a gamepad, with a Joy2Key profile configurated.

if there are only few games that requires keyboard, in my opinion this is not enough reason for adding the keyboard to the device (and more if this overprice the final product)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 22, 2015, 10:13:41 pm
The Pandora layout is perfectly comfortable in my opinion, much more so than the XD which requires my thumbs to crane down to the lower controls.

And there are many games that require a keyboard for the function and other keys , like adventure games etc.  ie there are whole genres of old PC games that are not suitable to be played without a keyboard.   

You gain a tremendous amount by having a keyboard, you lose little if not nothing by having one.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 22, 2015, 10:20:37 pm
and... about this, anybody can mention titles that need a keyboard to play? is for curious really, because as i know, many old titles can be played with a gamepad, with a Joy2Key profile configurated.
Old Sierra adventure games.
Old LucasArts adventure games.
Some indie games.
Any strategy game.

I don't think we're losing focus here, we're still debating the layout of the device. I think a detachable keyboard drawer that'll add, what, 1.5cm to the height of the device isn't that bad and therefore a good compromise, but that's just me.

vcoleiro1, do you think it's necessary to have the keyboard on the same plane as the game controls? Because the latest design by Deen0X fills all of the voids in my opinion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 22, 2015, 10:44:21 pm
Old Sierra adventure games.
Old LucasArts adventure games.
Some indie games.
Any strategy game.

but can you mention titles?
i want to google for them and check if really these games cannot be played with a proper joy2key setup.

of course, we are not talking about games that requires to input commands. personally i discard these kind of games for now.
i want to know other kind of games with only keyboard support.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 22, 2015, 10:52:02 pm
Well, adventure games require you to input commands, that's why they're so commonly brought up.

Regarding strategy games, you can't play Warcraft 1, 2 or 3 with only a gamepad. I don't think that 1 and 2 even support gamepad.
Same goes for StarCraft, the original XCOM series, etc. Strategy games necessitate the use of a keyboard for macros.

Regarding indie titles, it was brought up here but I'm not so sure myself. I think Undertale? Maybe The Stanley Parable. Also, I really enjoyed Lemmings in the past, but it really needs keyboard support for the number keys.

Point is, there are games that require the use of the keyboard, or are just more comfortable with more keys. Combine that with the inherent need of a keyboard with the Windows environment, and there's really no way of getting around that.

We've been going in the right direction up until now, and that is merging the keyboard onto the GPD XD - whether it be by a detachable custom accessory or rearranging the bottom layout of the GPD XD. We need to continue develop these ideas because they made sense in the first place, rather than second guess them.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 22, 2015, 11:13:17 pm
ok.
as starcraft player (and strategic games in general) i discard from moment zero to play in any place that is not a proper pc with a proper mouse and keyboard.
even playing in a notebook with a touchpad is uncomfortable for me.
all these kind of games i discard to play on any handheld windows device for this reason. no matter if you put a keyboard or not. simply will not be a full size keyboard, and will not bring to me a good experience to play.

Im pretty sure i did saw a lemmings Joy2Key profile, then you can play using a gamepad.


i will stop bugging about the need of keyboard. is evident we have different points of view about what we want from this windows based device (well, dual os, i hope)

i focus the main goal on a device gamepad oriented, where you can play with mouse or keyboard, but connecting them via USB or Bluetooth to the device. I really don?t see the need to put a complete keyboard on the device, because i can?t see games with only-keyboard support that reasonably want to play on this device. I mean, ok, there are few games that may be want to play there, but only for few games i don?t see the reasonable reason for adding a keyboard to the device.

As i read, many old games from sierra or lucas have problems to run on windows 10, then you really can?t play there directly. (most windows versions of old games are not compatible with current 64bits windows 10)

i want to be practical as possible. I want a good windows based device, similar to current XD, and hope with similar price.
if a keyboard will incide directly on final price of the device, really i prefer to avoid this, or even put another features such more internal storage space, etc.

I will keep reading you guys about this topic, but really i don?t have more arguments to debate.

my last design, yes, i like it, because did not modify the current layout. If this slide keyboard  is detachable, then better.

Zalu2!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 23, 2015, 01:46:26 pm
A sliding keyboard attached to a clamshell unquestionably will add thickness and price.

In my previous post I explained one way how to rearrange the game controls from the XD in a row: Dpad, L3, Left Joystick, onOff, Right Joystick, R3, and XYBA. This way we limit costs, oblige a tactile keyboard which some people want, and reach a wider user-base. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 23, 2015, 01:56:06 pm
Perhaps GPD could look into producing a Windows handheld version of the XD first and then a bulkier, more expensive Mini PC later if there is demand?

I think for most people the Windows XD would be all they want, something that is a similar cost to the XD and can be easily carried in their pocket.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 23, 2015, 03:18:40 pm
Perhaps GPD could look into producing a Windows handheld version of the XD first and then a bulkier, more expensive Mini PC later if there is demand?

I think for most people the Windows XD would be all they want, something that is a similar cost to the XD and can be easily carried in their pocket.

Agree 100%. And in fact, I would love and I think they might do this, if they would make it dual-boot like so many chinese tablets. Windows and android would be best of everything. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on December 23, 2015, 03:50:59 pm

As far as I know their initial idea is precisely use the mold of XD, but who knows what they will be releasing in the end.... if they do.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on December 23, 2015, 04:14:14 pm

As far as I know their initial idea is precisely use the mold of XD, but who knows what they will be releasing in the end.... if they do.

A portable windows/android gaming device I can fit in a NDS XL case... Can't say I am against it!  ;D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 23, 2015, 04:22:50 pm
Honestly, I'd want a Windows handheld with a keyboard for older computer emulation.  Amiga, C-64, Apple IIgs, etc (My age is showing).  If GPD could do an XD style with a snap on, slide-out USB Keyboard (for those  of us that want it), that would be great.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on December 23, 2015, 07:05:26 pm
my setup:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UJuIrVFBaRI/VnZrKyH1skI/AAAAAAAAWos/V23eWftl8h8/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD%252520Design_2.jpg)

I think this would be the best design concept for the next GPD... But the only thing I would add, would be MAYBE a bit bigger screen... Something like 5,5". That's only my opinion on it, so don't hate me

EDIT: And maybe a Atom processor, just to run Windows 10 or something on it, just for some stuff
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 23, 2015, 07:15:26 pm
But the only thing I would add, would be MAYBE a bit bigger screen... Something like 5,5". That's only my opinion on it, so don't hate me

EDIT: And maybe a Atom processor, just to run Windows 10 or something on it, just for some stuff

XD

this thread is for talking about the next GPD device, that will be a windows based device (Baytrail or Cherritrayl)

and screen, as we know, GPD is planning on put a 5.5" screen on the device. They want to delete the black borders of the current model.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on December 23, 2015, 08:00:11 pm
Heh, didn't know that. I got into knowing GPD XD a few days ago, so I was still amazed by it & didn't check any news or other things Would like to have it but no damn money to buy it
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 23, 2015, 09:49:04 pm
The positives going for the XD are its affordability and its high quality. The screen is in a word beautiful for this low price point, and my expectation is they preserve what makes the XD so very good in the next machine.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Mountainmohawk on December 23, 2015, 11:15:17 pm
So is this all pure speculation, or has GPD announced a Windows clamshell device?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 23, 2015, 11:23:43 pm
Well I'll buy the second one for shore I think the keyboard is required though and a button that will let u switch the thumb stick to a mouse in hardware mode so it still works with uac menus needs at least 4 GB of ram and 64 GB of storage and a core m. X input is also a must

Oh and Linux support as a option that means a proper bios that supports USB booting
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 24, 2015, 12:09:57 am
i looked up the price on the core m and the price is a bit high so im gonna go ahead and recommend the Intel? Atom? x7-Z8700 Processor instead its not as fast but it supports up to 8 gb of ram  and is the same soc used by the surface 3
core m out of the cube i7 would be better but the tray cost is high the M-5Y10c is 281.00 vs 37.00 for the atom.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 24, 2015, 01:47:34 am
i looked up the price on the core m and the price is a bit high so im gonna go ahead and recommend the Intel? Atom? x7-Z8700 Processor instead its not as fast but it supports up to 8 gb of ram  and is the same soc used by the surface 3
core m out of the cube i7 would be better but the tray cost is high the M-5Y10c is 281.00 vs 37.00 for the atom.

Cherry Trail is fine. We're getting carried away here and tbh it sounds like you need to buy a laptop rather than a handheld.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 24, 2015, 01:49:15 am
I mostly after 4gb of ram and that atom will do it. dude you misunderstand me im not trying to make a laptop i have other computers for that im just thinking about windows updates back in the day windows xp ran just fine on 512mb of ram after service pack 2 and 3 you needed between 1 and 2 gb of ram.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 24, 2015, 02:22:02 am
Our preliminary design scheme is clamshell with fully functional keyboard and handle.And the handle with mouse mode switch.The screen is 5.5 inch and 1080p.   ;)
How about this scheme??
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 24, 2015, 02:23:06 am
Being realistic GPD are going to be making a pretty budget device to appeal to the biggest audience, it's gonna have regular tablet specs as that is cheapest and will sell the most - there's nothing wrong with that and it means we all get a capable handheld for a good price. Memory isn't really a limiting factor with Atom gaming, pretty much everything you'll be running is fine with 2gb including a lot of last gen games. Again it would be nice to have but not necessary.

All we need is the XD form factor with xinput and 64gb storage, that's would be a great start to producing a Windows handheld and I'm sure this could be improved with later models.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 24, 2015, 02:24:56 am
Our preliminary design scheme is clamshell with fully functional keyboard and handle.And the handle with mouse mode switch.The screen is 5.5 inch and 1080p.   ;)
How about this scheme??

1080p is wasted on a small screen, 720p is fine. Mouse mode switch is a great idea as is the slightly larger screen.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on December 24, 2015, 02:52:54 am
Our preliminary design scheme is clamshell with fully functional keyboard and handle.And the handle with mouse mode switch.The screen is 5.5 inch and 1080p.   ;)
How about this scheme??

Very good scheme, though 1080p is kinda pointless. Unless you can get the 1080p screen for much cheaper than the 720p screen somehow, I don't think you should be wasting your time with that since it'll just increase price. Not only that it'll just make the battery life worse (unless you're getting one that has less battery consumption than all your possible 720p sources somehow), and it'll definitely just be a performance hit on games. Of course people can just decrease game resolution themselves, but doing that lowers visual quality anyway.

Anyway it'll be great if you're able to keep the keyboard somehow. A physical keyboard is much more necessary on a Windows devices than an Android one and an on screen one just won't cut it for both gaming and general usage.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: need2burn on December 24, 2015, 08:54:58 am
If 2 micro SD slots could be included, that would rock, and/or a full USB host for micro flash drive storage. I find myself filling these things up really quickly. I have 2x128gb microSD cards in my PSP with a photofast adapter and I use every last GB.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 24, 2015, 09:06:57 am
currently, if 1080p cost is similar to 720p, then is ok, if not, then 720p for 5" gaming hanheld  is fine

and take note that most games will be setup to low graphics (1204x768, 800x600, 640x480) to bring performance to games, then 1080p really will be used only with movies.

more than 2 microSD slots, i prefer almost one USB standard size. is very useful in my opinion, because you can plug easily external devices such nano pendrives, or direct keyboard/mouse

(http://mla-s2-p.mlstatic.com/mini-pendrive-64gb-nano-stereos-sandisk-cruzer-fit-200901-MLA20426096060_092015-O.jpg)

the cost of these nanopendrives are lowering so much, and this is a very good way to add storage to the device.

and of course, include USB 3.0...
and if you can (i'm not sure) a USB Type C

AND VERY IMPORTANT POINT. add XInput support for windows.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 24, 2015, 10:40:49 am
Our preliminary design scheme is clamshell with fully functional keyboard and handle.And the handle with mouse mode switch.The screen is 5.5 inch and 1080p.   ;)
How about this scheme??

Absolutely love the Keyboard inclusion. 

Are there any renders of your plans so far?

Can't wait for this to come out.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 24, 2015, 05:12:06 pm
another preliminary version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeyc6mPF66c

need to add some USB 3.0 ports (or typeC), the mouse mode button and icons to each control, but this is the main idea.
(oh, yes, and Q9 DPAD) XD

based on some bluetooth keyboards cases for iphone i check on the market, the device gain 9mm height from original design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Rhusie on December 24, 2015, 06:12:15 pm
That looks amazing.  Great job.

Frankly, though, if all they did was swap out Android/RK3288 for Windows/Bay Trail (Cherry if heat allows), I'd still buy it.  Don't really need any fluff.  It would be enough to even have the option of a cheap Windows device in this form factor.  Could even be the first fully functional Windows device period at this level of portability which is crazy for GPD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 24, 2015, 07:27:51 pm
Our preliminary design scheme is clamshell with fully functional keyboard and handle.And the handle with mouse mode switch.The screen is 5.5 inch and 1080p.   ;)
How about this scheme??

Larger screen is a plus and 720p or 1080p is okay. Bluetooth is a must.

So, using the GPD XD as a template, I worked out a possible barebones keyboard layout for you to think over. There are a total of thirteen keyboard keys per row and rows are not pyramid staggered like on the Pandora. These keys are roughly the same length and width as the volume buttons on the XD. Symbol printing could be put under each key same as they are for the volume buttons. Realistically you won't be writing term papers on this but it gets the basics down pat. Here it is:

Gaming Row: Dpad, L3, Joystick, onOFF, Joystick, R3, XYBA
1st Row: Esc 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
2nd Row: Tab q w e r t y u i o p Delete Backspace
3rd Row: Fn a s d f g h j k l ; ? Enter
4th Row: Shift z x c v b n m , . / Space Shift
Bottom Row: Speaker, Back, Home, GPDLOGO, Select, Start, Speaker

Manually holding Shift Key changes keyboard to this:
Esc ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +
Tab Q W E R T Y U I O P Delete Backspace
Fn A S D F G H J K L : ? Enter
Shift Z X C V B N M <  > ? Space Shift

Pressing sticky Fn changes keyboard to this:
Esc F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9 F10 F11 F12
Tab q w e r t y ~ { } | Delete Backspace
Fn a s d f g h ` [ ] ; ? Enter
Shift z x c v b n \ , . / Space Shift

Counting just the letters, there are 18 more places to use up for Fn. These could be filled with foreign characters or math symbols or left blank. To minimize the amount of printing, F1-F12 may be axed given this is a reduced keyboard layout and only so much can fit. Also, pressing Shift with the other Shift could lock it into Caps Lock mode, I suppose. 

Curiosity here is piqued for the real device.

Fixed layout to make it more evenly distributed.- December 25th.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on December 24, 2015, 08:13:27 pm
Hey, kendyzhu777 I have a question to you. Have you ever heard of the MiPad 2? It uses an Intel Atom processor (forgot which one) so maybe putting the same one in the next XD would be a good idea?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 24, 2015, 10:31:51 pm
There are three SOCs in the Cherry Trail series.

1) At the low end there is the X5-Z8300 up 1.84GHz

2) Mid ground, there is the X5-Z8500 up to 2.24GHz (used in the MiPAd 2)

3) High end , there is the X7-Z8700 up to 2.4GHz

All are 64 bit using 14nm lithography

The X7-Z8700 , it is a little more expensive than the other 2 options. Heat will need to be a consideration also, although all are quoted as a low 2W SDP, however SDP doesn't mean much at all.   No TDP fuigures are given , which gives a better indication of what power/heat would be generated

They will probably go for the 8300 or 8500

If other Windows 10 tablets with the 8300 are to go by, then this will use the 32 bit version of Windows 10

Here they are :  http://ark.intel.com/products/codename/46629/Cherry-Trail
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on December 24, 2015, 11:12:45 pm
I play pcsx2 on my Asus transformer book with a z3775, if at least that powerful that would mean handheld ps2 emulation, which would be amazing
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Carbon_brah on December 25, 2015, 12:11:49 am
Lose keyboard in the middle, have good buttons and analog, and the top one would be awesome, i'd probably buy lol.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Verdugo on December 25, 2015, 12:27:33 am
The second one is the best!
The first one has bad ergonomics for 2d games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: need2burn on December 25, 2015, 12:34:35 am
I would be on top of a device like this. If I could have something play GC, PS2, DC and earlier consoles running Windows (as well as PC games!) I would pay up to $500 or maybe even more for it.

If it had a dedicated GPU variant I would pay even more. I know that's probably out of the realm of possibilities. I'm assuming this will be limited to the CPU as far as gaming performance, correct?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on December 25, 2015, 12:46:03 am
Lose keyboard in the middle, have good buttons and analog, and the top one would be awesome, i'd probably buy lol.

Out of all the things listed, I think this would really be the most important. Sourcing and using better designs, as well as stronger plastics would really improve the device. My Q9 is pretty great all around except for the quality of the controls are a bit iffy, like the broken d-pad I posted in another thread. The analogs sticks spin but they were fixed in the Q9 PSV version.

The sprue that hold my ABXY buttons together has broken because it was so thin so the action is poor, especially on the X button where it will stick slightly, and a couple times I've pushed it into the case where it turned and got stuck so I had to disasseble the whole thing to fix. I've gobbed them up with epoxy and they seem to be holding together but the sprue really should have been thicker.
Not sure if this problem could affect the XD at all as I haven't seen the internals that much.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 25, 2015, 01:26:37 am
The more I think about it, the better the detachable keyboard design seems. When using the keyboard, the device will probably be on some surface, which really narrows control options as it won't be held.
However, when it's held, the keyboard can retract and it'll be just as comfortable (albeit slightly fatter) than a GPD XD. Holding it with the keyboard open will let you have the original thickness, plus a full keyboard of macros at your disposal.

So, good job, Deen0X. I also really liked your 3D video, it's awesome. I'm sorry for being so hard on you, my outlook is way different than yours' on Windows devices.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 25, 2015, 01:49:01 am
I'm sorry for being so hard on you, my outlook is way different than yours' on Windows devices.

don?t worry. you're welcome for any comment and suggestions.

more i think on the slider keyboard, more i like it.
the detachable keyboard idea i thinked time ago, but i didn't consider the slider keyboard yet. now, i think is the best way to solve the problem
and if my calculations are right, the device only gain between 8~9 mm (maybe less, because i?m based on standard iphone cases with bluetooth keyboards)
maybe if GPD include this slider keyboard, only need about 4~5mm to implement.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 25, 2015, 02:47:08 am
About the internal configuration, be pretty sure, we will use Intel processor.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 25, 2015, 02:55:28 am
There are three SOCs in the Cherry Trail series.

1) At the low end there is the X5-Z8300 up 1.84GHz

2) Mid ground, there is the X5-Z8500 up to 2.24GHz (used in the MiPAd 2)

3) High end , there is the X7-Z8700 up to 2.4GHz

All are 64 bit using 14nm lithography

The X7-Z8700 , it is a little more expensive than the other 2 options. Heat will need to be a consideration also, although all are quoted as a low 2W SDP, however SDP doesn't mean much at all.   No TDP fuigures are given , which gives a better indication of what power/heat would be generated

They will probably go for the 8300 or 8500

Yes!It depends on the price.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 25, 2015, 12:24:41 pm
I have a slider keyboard, and there would nothing worse than having a slider keyboard on this.   It needs an embedded keyboard just like the Pandora. And by what GPD said in their last post , GPD are planning just that, so lets wait and see  the design they have, hopefully they will shortly show us.

Let me elaborate on why a slider is horrendous for a clamshell.   When you extend the keyboard to use it, you hold pretty much the keyboard extension.  The entire weight of the device - base (which includes battery) and the swung open screen is now all leveraging from the point of the keyboard.   As I said, I have a slide out keyboard for an Iphone, to test it, I put   the clamshell on the phone holder bit with the screen not even fully opened.  Trust me, it was horrendous.  All the weight is leveraging down from the point of the keyboard.  Second, a slide out keyboard would add about a 1cm thickness to the device. That's about the thickness of my slide out keyboard .



Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 25, 2015, 04:52:55 pm
I have a slider keyboard, and there would nothing worse than having a slider keyboard on this.   It needs an embedded keyboard just like the Pandora. And by what GPD said in their last post , GPD are planning just that, so lets wait and see  the design they have, hopefully they will shortly show us.

Let me elaborate on why a slider is horrendous for a clamshell.   When you extend the keyboard to use it, you hold pretty much the keyboard extension.  The entire weight of the device - base (which includes battery) and the swung open screen is now all leveraging from the point of the keyboard.   As I said, I have a slide out keyboard for an Iphone, to test it, I put   the clamshell on the phone holder bit with the screen not even fully opened.  Trust me, it was horrendous.  All the weight is leveraging down from the point of the keyboard.  Second, a slide out keyboard would add about a 1cm thickness to the device. That's about the thickness of my slide out keyboard.

True. Only way a slider keyboard would work with a clamshell is if the person using it had abnormally long thumbs. Leverage is way off.

The other way of course is if the next device weren't a clamshell at all but a full slider like the N900 or PSPgo, which isn't what they want. An embedded keyboard like on the Pandora/Pyra is the way to go for the GPD "ZD".   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: hunthunt on December 25, 2015, 10:35:44 pm
I would be all over something like this but i don't think i would like to pay more than $300 for an emulation device. I trust in GPD now thanks to the awesomeness in the G5a and the XD, but 300 would be a little bit too much. not more than 200 and im in.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 25, 2015, 10:47:19 pm
I don't think $300 would be too much to ask for a Windows handheld, and if it could increase the product quality - I'd rather pay $300 on a device that's built to last rather than $200 on a device that's deeply flawed.

Regarding the keyboard, it has its pros and cons. The slider keyboard design gives you more room and is complacent with common use, which is a blessing, while the all-in-one design lets you also use the keyboard while holding the device and is far more sleeker. I don't think one is inherently better than the other, and therefore would like to take the path of least resistance - which is the slider design. Extreme typing can't be done using only your thumbs anyhow (unless you're T9 it, which no one wants to return to).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 25, 2015, 11:06:54 pm
A slide out keyboard is not the  least resistance option.  It's totally not practical.   It would be a no for me if it had a slide out for the reasons I gave.    An embedded KB is the way to go and a tried and proven design.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 26, 2015, 12:44:06 am
I would say the slide out keyboard is a bad idea less space for batteries and cooling
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 26, 2015, 02:17:53 am
Hey~Our Preliminary concept design have been forming!!!How do you think about it? If you have any kind recommendation,please be free to sent a email to our technical team :[email protected] ,the name is Kelvin.communication with the technical person may more accuracy and effective than I pass on~~Thanks so much for your kind concerns!!any recommendation,we will check it carefully and consider it as important references!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 26, 2015, 02:22:16 am
That looks immensely cool, please make sure the gaming controls are comfortable though. They should be where your thumb naturally falls like on the XD, you shouldn't have to strain your thumbs.

Good job though, that looks like a winning device to me.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 26, 2015, 02:29:59 am
That looks great, I particularly like the styling of it.   It sort of reminds me of something youd see on 2001 a Space Odessy, a sort of futuristic style.  Love the styling and the location of the keyboard and controls

I do have some tweeks I'd make though, Like i'd  lose the 2 columns of keys on the right side.  I'd also make all keys single width except for the space key which I'd make double width. To get some vertical gap between keys , the keys can also be a little shorter(say by 0.5 mm) , key height is not as important as key width is on a small keyboard. I'd do all this to space the keys more and maximise spacing between the keys. I'd also put buttons between the joysticks, like power, volume, brightness etc, just like on the current XD.  Spacing between keys is important. But loving the direction so far. Even as it is, I'd buy it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 26, 2015, 02:33:34 am
It looks cool. the face buttons look too close to the edge though
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 26, 2015, 02:52:18 am
I'm not too sure about that design, it seems like you would hit the keyboard any time you wanted to press a button as it's quite close to the edge and your thumb would be constantly hovering above it.
The keyboard needs to be in the center (and lose the two right columns) or in another layer entirely for it to be practical.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Eliwood_san on December 26, 2015, 02:53:16 am
Hey~Our Preliminary concept design have been forming!!!How do you think about it? If you have any kind recommendation,please be free to sent a email to our technical team :[email protected] ,the name is Kelvin.communication with the technical person may more accuracy and effective than I pass on~~Thanks so much for your kind concerns!!any recommendation,we will check it carefully and consider it as important references!!

I like those pictures,well only want to say please make a handheld with full os windows 10.I dont care dualboot(Windows 10/android).If you make a good handheld installed only windows system you can take my money.

I know some people like a lot to have dualboot OS in your shiny new gpd handheld,but for me i dont care. Reasons why you dont care? its very simple if gpd make a handheld with only 32 gb of space,install dualboot in that crappy space its nonsense.So i prefer full windows with all space gb available in our units.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 26, 2015, 02:53:32 am
It looks cool. the face buttons look too close to the edge though

Yeah I thought that, I guess nobody will know until they get their hands on a physical prototype. There's plenty of room to move them in a bit though.

The renders look like a premium product that would be used for much more than just gaming, kinda reminiscent of the Sony laptops with the smooth lines and smart design cues. Looks great IMO.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 26, 2015, 02:54:30 am
I like those pictures,well only want to say please make a handheld with full os windows 10.I dont care dualboot(Windows 10/android).If you make a good handheld installed only windows system you can take my money.

I know some people like a lot to have dualboot in your shiny new gpd handheld,but for me i dont care.

Same here, there's no point in having Android on there if you have Windows.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 26, 2015, 02:58:23 am
At first glance after seeing that comment re face buttons, I thought , hmmm, are those face buttons too close to the edge.

Then I picked up my DS Lite and noticed the face buttons on it are even closer to the edge , and no one has a problem with them.   In fact I just measured it, the A button on the DS Lite is only 4mm from the edge

So based on that, I think the face buttons will be fine where they are.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: need2burn on December 26, 2015, 03:30:12 am
Take my money.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: bedbug1226 on December 26, 2015, 06:30:53 am
So the second and third pic are slightly different designs.... is this on purpose?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Fantomas on December 26, 2015, 07:11:58 am
I like this design but I always strain my thumbs with a 3DS. Please move the dpad and face buttons away from the edge. From the concept design there is space to move them.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 26, 2015, 09:14:09 am
The more a look at the style of this, the more I like it.  Controls up high like that are the most ergonomical positions.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on December 26, 2015, 09:18:27 am
<3
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 26, 2015, 09:25:47 am
Does this design still have l3 and r3 buttons ? I found them very useful on the xd
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 26, 2015, 09:38:34 am
Does this design still have l3 and r3 buttons ? I found them very useful on the xd

Plenty of room to add them, but I wonder if they have found clickable sticks to use.  Hmm
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 26, 2015, 12:27:19 pm
Hey~Our Preliminary concept design have been forming!!!How do you think about it? If you have any kind recommendation,please be free to sent a email to our technical team :[email protected] ,the name is Kelvin.communication with the technical person may more accuracy and effective than I pass on~~Thanks so much for your kind concerns!!any recommendation,we will check it carefully and consider it as important references!!

It's good but if I were your designer I'd discard the two columns to the right of the keyboard and move any function keys(volume, brightness, WiFi, Bluetooth) to the middle, above the keyboard.

The Power onOFF button would be at the center of these function keys like it is on the GPD XD. Mouse toggle button would then be just below this cluster of keys with Select to the left of them and Start to the right of them near to the left and right joysticks respectively.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 26, 2015, 01:12:07 pm
Yeah I agree, the brightness and volume would go in the centre also, like with the XD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on December 26, 2015, 02:10:05 pm
Four shoulder buttons? Can't tell
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 26, 2015, 10:43:51 pm
Honestly, I loved the keyboard on the Sharp Zaurus line.  It was compact, spaced well, would allow the controls to be on its side, and was good to type on with your thumbs.  I see the prototype here, and I am just seeing too much for keyboard.

(http://www.mobiletechreview.com/image/zaurus_c3200_keyboard.jpg)

I hacked the Sharp Zaurus from Japanese to English using its own keyboard, back in 2003.  Putting a good Fn key for function keys are all you need.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: need2burn on December 27, 2015, 03:34:56 am
What's the usual timeframe of a device in this preliminary stage of development and when it's available for retail? Anyone have a clue? I know it varies...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 27, 2015, 11:07:33 pm
Just a quick question - do Cherry Trail tablets use dual channel ram? If so is this likely to use it?

I think that would be really important for a gaming handheld and would give some great performance gains.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 27, 2015, 11:17:05 pm
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

Note that there isn't really a point to go beyond 4GB, even if they do choose to go with the more advanced CPUs.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 27, 2015, 11:39:36 pm
Hmm, looks like the Z8300 does not have dual channel, only the Z8500 and Z8700 SOCs have dual channel.  . Also, the Z8300  has a max memory support of only 2GB . Reason to push for the Z8500 by the looks of it

http://ark.intel.com/products/87383/Intel-Atom-x5-Z8300-Processor-2M-Cache-up-to-1_84-GHz

"Max Memory Size (dependent on memory type)   2 GB"
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: bentodd2000 on December 28, 2015, 01:25:07 am
My only problem here is that it would probably run windows 10 mobile not full windows 10. Microsoft set the size limit for full windows 10 at 8" and anything smaller would run windows mobile. Don't get me wrong I have a phone that has win 10 mobile but the emulator apps and not as refined as android or full windows 10. Unless they installed a non genuine version and used an atom soc.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 01:45:55 am
I think it would have to run Windows 10 full some how.   For the reasons you pointed out.  Otherwise its going to be severely gimped.   I did notice the first concept images they showed, featured full windows.  But that's just a mock up image.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 28, 2015, 02:15:27 am
My only problem here is that it would probably run windows 10 mobile not full windows 10. Microsoft set the size limit for full windows 10 at 8" and anything smaller would run windows mobile. Don't get me wrong I have a phone that has win 10 mobile but the emulator apps and not as refined as android or full windows 10. Unless they installed a non genuine version and used an atom soc.

It won't run Windows 10 mobile. There would be literally no point to that, they're making a mini PC not a phone.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 02:24:55 am
my last design (yellow) based on the GPD preliminary concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hfiPz-adKs

added 2 USB ports (back)
biggest L2 and R2
displaced L3 and R3
keep the gaming layout from original GPD-XD
C and Z have another touch feeling (are concave). these buttons will be used basically on fighting games (3x2 layout), then i give an "arc" layout for esase usage with the thumb.
DPAD is a little bit biggest than original.
keyboard functions (right panel on original design) i figuring are common buttons.
I keep my button bar with the following buttons:
Select
BACK
Windows/Home
HOME (from X360 gamepad)
Context menu
Keyboard enable/disable button
Start

I don?t like really the preliminary concept, because the keyboard, that is a secondary element, get so much space and modify the original layout that is focussed on gaming (gamepad layout)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 02:32:33 am
My only problem here is that it would probably run windows 10 mobile not full windows 10. Microsoft set the size limit for full windows 10 at 8" and anything smaller would run windows mobile. Don't get me wrong I have a phone that has win 10 mobile but the emulator apps and not as refined as android or full windows 10. Unless they installed a non genuine version and used an atom soc.

It won't run Windows 10 mobile. There would be literally no point to that, they're making a mini PC not a phone.

Agreed.   

There will also need to be a discussion on how much ram we should aim for. Becuase if people want more than 2GB, only the Z8500 (and Z8700) will allow more than 2GB.  Also,I love the positons of the controls in GPDs latest render, they are the most natural positions for my thumbs.  I like the current GPD render layout, the keyboard needs to be simplified a little with better key spacing , the right columns of keys removed and all keys made single width (except for a double width space key) but that's about it.    If the keyboard were inbetween the controls, then the keys would then need to be unuseably small, something like 3mm per key.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 02:41:19 am
even with baytrail soc will be an interesting device.

samples of gaming on baytrail.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXPqQ3mj-_IcP0aevb4JoI_tqYV-mLqSi
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on December 28, 2015, 02:42:50 am
It'd be great if this handheld was cheap, but I want at least the Z8500 so that it could run a wider range of games. 4 GB RAM would be wonderful, but likely costly.


Though, the Linx Vision rocks a Z8300 apparently with 2 GB RAM but is priced at 150 pounds (about $224). Of course it has a bigger screen, and has a controller designed in cooperation with Microsoft's Xbox team, but I still worry if it'd be possible for GPD to fit better specs in the same price range or CHEAPER.

EDIT: Teclast's x98 Pro uses the Z8500 and 4 GB RAM with 64 GB internal storage while also driving a 9.7 inch 2048 x 1536 screen and 8000 mAh battery and is price at around $240. Considering we're going for nearly half that size screen at 5.5 inch with either a 720p (preferred) or 1080p (only if cheap enough) screen, and likely going to have a smaller battery, could we maybe expect a lower price than that? And even more so if there's a 32 GB internal storage version? Unless, of course, the game controls and keyboard end up jacking the price up or something.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 02:55:32 am
It'd be great if this handheld was cheap, but I want at least the Z8500 so that it could run a wider range of games. 4 GB RAM would be wonderful, but likely costly.


Though, the Linx Vision rocks a Z8300 apparently with 2 GB RAM but is priced at 150 pounds (about $224). Of course it has a bigger screen, and has a controller designed in cooperation with Microsoft's Xbox team, but I still worry if it'd be possible for GPD to fit better specs in the same price range or CHEAPER.

It's hard to say how much going with the Z8500 and 4GB would add to the final cost, over a Z8300 and 2GB.   The list price of the Z8500 is $6 more than the Z8300  ,  then you have the extra ram price.  Maybe $10 more to the device price overall
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 28, 2015, 03:12:36 am
Any recommendation,please be free to sent a email to our Tech team:[email protected].Looking forward to discuss design with you all !! ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 03:19:31 am
Any recommendation,please be free to sent a email to our Tech team:[email protected].Looking forward to discuss design with you all !! ;)

I have asked via the proper channels that you mention, but in case you see this. Can you please provide a render showing the layout from a top down (overhead) view.  As it is now, it's difficult to give any feedback as we cannot see any of the keys.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on December 28, 2015, 03:30:40 am
A render of the back would also be nice so we can confirm the ports and shoulder buttons...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: bentodd2000 on December 28, 2015, 04:40:58 am
My only problem here is that it would probably run windows 10 mobile not full windows 10. Microsoft set the size limit for full windows 10 at 8" and anything smaller would run windows mobile. Don't get me wrong I have a phone that has win 10 mobile but the emulator apps and not as refined as android or full windows 10. Unless they installed a non genuine version and used an atom soc.

It won't run Windows 10 mobile. There would be literally no point to that, they're making a mini PC not a phone.

As far as I know Microsoft won't license full windows 10 for screen sizes under 8". I was not saying it should run windows mobile I was just saying what I know about licensing for windows 10. I am a msft shareholder and follow all of this. I just think it should be clear from gpd what the is would be. I don't know it may fall under mini PC box rules.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 04:58:32 am
My only problem here is that it would probably run windows 10 mobile not full windows 10. Microsoft set the size limit for full windows 10 at 8" and anything smaller would run windows mobile. Don't get me wrong I have a phone that has win 10 mobile but the emulator apps and not as refined as android or full windows 10. Unless they installed a non genuine version and used an atom soc.

It won't run Windows 10 mobile. There would be literally no point to that, they're making a mini PC not a phone.

As far as I know Microsoft won't license full windows 10 for screen sizes under 8". I was not saying it should run windows mobile I was just saying what I know about licensing for windows 10. I am a msft shareholder and follow all of this. I just think it should be clear from gpd what the is would be. I don't know it may fall under mini PC box rules.

From this slashgear article, it seems MS have made a recommendation to OEMs to use Win 10 Mobile for devices with a screen less than 8".   They have not dictated it. It's still up to the OEM on what they will use.  http://www.slashgear.com/microsoft-recommends-7-inch-tablets-run-windows-10-mobile-25406388/

Of course that article could be wrong, do you have a source for the details on this?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 28, 2015, 09:30:06 am
From this slashgear article, it seems MS have made a recommendation to OEMs to use Win 10 Mobile for devices with a screen less than 8".   They have not dictated it. It's still up to the OEM on what they will use.  http://www.slashgear.com/microsoft-recommends-7-inch-tablets-run-windows-10-mobile-25406388/

Of course that article could be wrong, do you have a source for the details on this?

That was my understanding too, they would be stupid to limit it that way, it's not like there haven't been mini PCs before (Vaio P, Libretto, IBM PC110).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 11:29:50 am
Fingers crossed that slashgear article  is accurate .  Otherwise we would be in some bother. But yeah, it does seem to be the case
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on December 28, 2015, 12:59:51 pm
but even if you could not license it, that doesn?t mean they can't just put windows 10 on there. It?s China! I don't care one bit, as long as it works. I am more worried about the gpu speeds like I mentioned in the other thread...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 06:39:59 pm
there are more designs i created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bCY3I1GFBQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-9gmbgtPX0

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 28, 2015, 07:46:37 pm
Deen0X, the second design is awesome. I don't think it needs the touchpad if the screen is going to be a touchscreen, which will help cut down the cost and the size of the addon.

It poses a bit of a problem with games that can use both the keyboard and the gamepad simultaneously, but these are rare and few between.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 09:31:51 pm
The current GPD render is best, it needs some tweeks to simplify the keyboard  including removing the right columns of keys etc etc. But its getting there.    I think it's control layout seems to be the most ergonomical, having the controls in the high position - the natural spots your thumbs go to when holding a clamshell.

The thing is , there are plenty of games that would require the keyboard and controls.   All flight games for a start(flight sim and fighter pilot type games), ie where you would use the game controls and keys.  Same with games where you need to move the character with the controls  around and use the keys to execute potions etc .    You would also want to use  the joystick in a mouse mode along with the KB.   The fact of the matter is that the keyboard under the controls is the best layout for a handheld with game controls and keyboard, which is what GPD has said they want to create from the start.   

Don't forget there will also be plenty of routine stuff under windows you will need that keyboard for.   Using the free MS Office that is free for devices with less than a 10" screen, using Windows apps generally - most of which need the keyboard. Entering filenames, usernames, passwords etc etc etc. Remember Windows is not Android , Windows apps are geared towards keyboard input
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 28, 2015, 09:43:49 pm
I don't know. As I've said, you could ditch the touchscreen, thus making the keyboard addon smaller. That way you'll have access to both analogs while still having the keyboard, and only the face buttons will be obscured.

It might be the only way the consolidate both the pure-console, hybrid, and pure-computer types of consumers.

If it releases with the addon, I will probably have the keyboard attached 90% of the time. So I get it. I get the keyboard necessity. But other people find it intrusive, and I have to make compromises (having a fatter device) so it may appeal to everyone.
That being said, if it doesn't appeal to everyone and they keyboard will be an integral part of the lower portion, I'll be fine with that too. It's just alienating other users, and there's no reason to do it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 09:56:51 pm
Remember  that a separate add on means you would then have two products GPD would be manufacturing and packaging.   It would have its own case, internals(chips) , connecter etc.  Think about what that means.  It's not feasable

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 09:58:48 pm
as i said, my preferences are without keyboard. is a secondary element on the device, that have so much space on the render. is a thing that really will be less used than gamepad.

for most usage, on screen keyboard is fine for me. really i don?t need to type so much, even using my win tablet, rarelly i need to write something.

for me, hope GPD take note about this and keep the original gamepad layout. keyboard may be something like blackberry, on the center, but separated from gamepad for avoiding accidental pressings. (or add a "keyboard" switch)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 10:00:46 pm
Remember  that a separate add on means you would then have two products GPD would be manufacturing and packaging.   It would have its own case, internals(chips) , connecter etc.  Think about what that means.  It's not feasable

no. it is a simple USB interface. there is no need of internal chips, connectors, etc.
its a simple usb keyboard, most like bluetooth keyboards for iphone, but more simple. this is usb, not bluetooth.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 10:03:53 pm
You need a usb/keyboard controller for a usb keyboard.   and there are more internals than that that would be required on its own PCB - a seperate PCB that would also need to be made. Along with its own case with its own mold.  Open a usb keyboard if you don't believe me.    Not feasable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 28, 2015, 10:08:37 pm
You can say that about every electronic device - they're complicated only by the merit of them being electrical rather than physical. The fact is that it can be flattened and compact, as there are many keyboard cases and other flat keyboards on the market.

And yes, you are correct. It means having another PCB, but that board will have been the same if it were embedded in the GPD XD as it is. It's just a matter of soldering the connectors or having a USB interface.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 10:16:27 pm
No its not the same at all.   Sorry maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly, maybe I'm taking things for granted having a lot of experience in HW.   Let me be clearer.  Creating a separate case requires separate molds . molds are super expensive, they are one of the most expensive thing to create when producing a new product , typically north of $60K.   Then you have a seperate PCB production which does not happen in a single embedded KB design which has KB contacts etc on the back of the main system PCB. You would also need need two production lines to create this separate product

Having a separate add on accessory would add a lot of cost, complexity in production and support, and time to market.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 10:36:42 pm
On a separate note, it would be nice to get some more info from GPD on what they are thinking re: specs.  Probably would be worth having some specs conversations amongst us also. 

For example, how much ram would people be happy with?

I ask that question, because out of the three Cherry Trail SOCs, one does not support more than 2GB.  So knowing how much RAM people want , will have a flow on effect to other specs like what SOC to use.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 10:39:50 pm
based on this:

(http://tech4gamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/untitled11.png)

figuring we are talking about common Z3735F device, the SoC support:
1x 3.0 USB port
4x 2.0 USB ports

then, you don't need another pcb for this. simply need a connector and soldering points on the SoC

this is what i understand.

but, if the usb port is the problem, then you can config the keyboard as bluetooth, as any other standard bluetooth keyboard for iphone/android that are on the market.

anyway, more time i thinking on this, more i convinced that is not required the keyboard for this first version of the device.
Maybe GPD can release two devices. the first maybe something exactly as current GPD-XD, but with dual OS (Windows/Android) and no matter wich SoC, but something running Windows 10 (even baytrail is ok in my opinion, for a first device), and then can release something as pandora, with less comfort on gamepad, but adding a good keyboard for other kind of games or usage.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: R2112 on December 28, 2015, 10:45:33 pm
<3 that design, cherry trail
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 10:50:25 pm
I think I'd go for the X5-Z8500 Cherry Trail SOC.   As for Ram , not sure what does everyone think, 2GB or 4GB
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 10:53:51 pm
simply, if they go for cherrytrail, the reason must be the 4GB RAM.
if not, then go for baytrail 2GB RAM.

the main reason of considering baytrail is for heating. Cherrytrail get so hot when working, but baytrail is more fresh and stable (well, this is my experience with both kind of SoC)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 11:07:06 pm
Storage?   64GB ?

Remember it's Windows, so a lot will be lost to the OS
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 28, 2015, 11:09:11 pm
mine device is 64GB, and i?m running android and windows.
i still get free about 14GB, that i let to operating system (windows)
all my stuff is on microSD. well, i have some renders (avis) on C:, that i think i can delete for more free space.

i don?t see the problem.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Rhusie on December 28, 2015, 11:42:51 pm
simply, if they go for cherrytrail, the reason must be the 4GB RAM.
if not, then go for baytrail 2GB RAM.

the main reason of considering baytrail is for heating. Cherrytrail get so hot when working, but baytrail is more fresh and stable (well, this is my experience with both kind of SoC)

Yes, I'll be pleasantly surprised if they manage to get the heat under control in such a tiny unit vs the failing of other Chinese OEMs to do so in their tablets.  A gaming device that heat throttles uncontrollably will be useless to everyone.  Maybe Intel's upcoming refresh will help.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 28, 2015, 11:49:52 pm
simply, if they go for cherrytrail, the reason must be the 4GB RAM.
if not, then go for baytrail 2GB RAM.

the main reason of considering baytrail is for heating. Cherrytrail get so hot when working, but baytrail is more fresh and stable (well, this is my experience with both kind of SoC)

Yes, I'll be pleasantly surprised if they manage to get the heat under control in such a tiny unit vs the failing of other Chinese OEMs to do so in their tablets.  A gaming device that heat throttles uncontrollably will be useless to everyone.  Maybe Intel's upcoming refresh will help.

What is Intels road map for future SOCs, I can't find much on it?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 12:02:42 am
Storage should be 64gb, no question. Personally I don't want Android on there, can't see the point. Hopefully if GPD do decide to go for the dual boot they can release a firmware with just Windows, or at least a tool to get rid of Android.

Although it would be nice to have 4gb ram the games you'll be playing don't need it. The more modern ones will be at low settings and aren't going to be limited by 2gb ram, the older ones from GC/PS2/XB era won't need more than 2gb anyway. My Bay Trail tablet is sufficient with 2gb ram, Fallout 3 is completely playable with a few tweaks for instance.

One last thing I forgot about - some tablets can't support a USB optical drive. Mine bugs out and constantly connects/disconnects when I try and use an external drive and mine is a low power Samsung one with a single USB cable. It's the same with my powered laptop dock too although sometimes works long enough to install a game. This is pretty important to ensure a USB DVD drive works as a lot of my games are on CD/DVD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 29, 2015, 12:12:15 am
well, for solving this issue, you can plug a powered HUB USB to the tablet, and with this will avoid disconnection caused by low power.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 01:06:44 am
I've tried that both with a powered laptop dock with a DVD drive in it and a powered USB hub with the Samsung drive, both times it does that same disconnect/connect. I've also tried it with my old USB DVD drive which has a seperate USB cable for power (I connected this to another source) and the same thing happened. So it happens on 3 different drives with extra power coming from different sources on each attempt, I Googled it at the time and it seems like it's an issue affecting some Windows tablets. Weirdly it also does the same thing with my phone.

Most of my games are Steam/GoG but it would be nice to get Need for Speed, CoD and Resident Evil series games working without paying a premium for them again. Also there are some games like Silent Hill 2, Gears of War, Halo 1&2 and Outrun 2006 that don't have digital versions. Sharing the drive over a network is a possibility but it's something that should just work IMO.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 29, 2015, 02:13:52 am
and did you tried with another DVD device?
my external DVD work without issues.

take note that most android don?t support correctly DVD drives.
i strong suggest to use any DVD/BR drive with Mass storage function.

this is my drive:
Samsung SE-208AB TS03 (http://manguiro.blogspot.com.es/2014/03/videoreview-grabador-samsung-se-208ab.html)

powering on with eject pressed, the device act as a standard pendrive, and android can read without problem.

take note that this only read data DVD/BR. Movies in DVD/BR format cannot be readed by android using this drive/mode.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 02:44:54 am
and did you tried with another DVD device?
my external DVD work without issues.

take note that most android don?t support correctly DVD drives.
i strong suggest to use any DVD/BR drive with Mass storage function.

this is my drive:
Samsung SE-208AB TS03 (http://manguiro.blogspot.com.es/2014/03/videoreview-grabador-samsung-se-208ab.html)

powering on with eject pressed, the device act as a standard pendrive, and android can read without problem.

take note that this only read data DVD/BR. Movies in DVD/BR format cannot be readed by android using this drive/mode.

The tablet is Windows, not Android. It's a Voyo A1 Mini with the z3735D.

I tried it with 3 different DVD drives:
- The Samsung (SE208DB) which is like yours, both directly and through a powered hub.
- The DVD drive in my powered laptop dock.
- My old DVD drive with external power.

The powered dock will sometimes work, in fact I installed Outrun 2006 and Fallout 3 GotY on it, Fallout took a few attempts though, sometimes it will just disconnect straight away. The tablet can run a 2.5" external drive and my USB powered mixing desk with no issues, in fact it can supply enough power to the mic preamp on the desk which surprised me.

I just thought it might be something GPD want to check as there's probably quite a few people who will want to install old games from disc then run a crack.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: need2burn on December 29, 2015, 03:24:58 am
Making an image of your disc, installing with a virtual drive, then cracking is essentially the same as what you are doing. Why are you going to go through that much trouble to simply appease the disc checks?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 29, 2015, 07:36:43 am
So, there is another Windows gaming tablet called the Linx Vision.  It has the Atom Z8300 cpu and in the Linx threads, they say PS2 emulation is working well on it.  Controller is Xbox emulated, so it streams Xbox One.

Here is a list of Steam games.

http://www.linxtablet.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=1492#p8919

In reading about this, big complaint is keyboard games don't work.  I think the GPD version can really learn from this.  GPD can make sure they don't make the same mistakes.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: midknight on December 29, 2015, 07:49:56 am
How I handle the DVD drive situation on my tablet is with the help of another computer you can just copy the files to a flash drive or you can share the disc drive on the network
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 09:24:36 am
Making an image of your disc, installing with a virtual drive, then cracking is essentially the same as what you are doing. Why are you going to go through that much trouble to simply appease the disc checks?

I have had to do this with one or two games and I find it a convoluted process - a USB DVD drive should work so why go through the trouble of a workaround? Fix the problem at it's root rather than papering over cracks. Also I'm not particularly aware of a good free program to do this as Daemontools is pretty invasive these days and I don't want it on my computer.

Not sure what you're on about regarding disc checks, I just use a crack like you normally would. I haven't had a laptop with an optical drive in 6 years so have a folder with working cracks for all my games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 09:27:37 am
How I handle the DVD drive situation on my tablet is with the help of another computer you can just copy the files to a flash drive or you can share the disc drive on the network

Well we don't actually have a PC with an optical drive in the house, so that would mean using an external drive anyway. As I said above it should work, especially in a gaming machine targeted at older games as a DVD/CD drive will get more use than normal. If GPD are making this then it's something that should work rather than having to be worked around.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 09:37:39 am
Also if the gamepad is put into mouse mode then surely it would be advantageuos to map the left stick to WASD, the L1 & R1 to the mouse buttons, L3 & R3 to mouse scroll and the other buttons to common keys like Shift, E, Ctrl, Tab, F, Q etc.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on December 29, 2015, 09:42:40 am
Current GPD XD dpad and buttons layout is not very ergonomic for me. I hope they change to this new one, similar to Pyra/Pandora one. It looks more confortable to me.

About SOC, what kind of games could manage fluently a Z8500 and his Intel HD Graphics?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 11:32:07 am
About SOC, what kind of games could manage fluently a Z8500 and his Intel HD Graphics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkWXYwaMUOg

With a few tweaks you could get that at a steady 30fps.

You could run a great deal of the X360/PS3 generation at 720p with low settings, going down to 1024x600 would be totally fine on a 5.5" screen and gives a good boost on a lot of games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 29, 2015, 12:39:48 pm
Cherrytrail gaming:

Deus Human Ex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSVgYiE1PVA

DmC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLn15BVDdkU
(Sounds grab weird on my capturer)

Alan Wake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAxuR2kgXxs

Alice Madness Return
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naw-5Lf74Ho

Batman Arkham Origins Blackgate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waJT5gN1HDg

Batman Arkham City
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9iS83SSUB0

Tomb Raider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BLESoVgVwI

and all the games that run on Baytrail runs better on Cherrytrail.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 29, 2015, 02:38:35 pm
Alan Wake and Tomb Raider look to be running far better than on my Bay Trail tablet, more like my AMD A6 which is pretty good seeing as that's 14w TDP.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 29, 2015, 07:10:33 pm
Okay, so the wife said she is cool with me getting the Linx Vision, but asked that I wait until after January.  Since we have a baby on the way, she wants to get the nursery finished first.  So, since I have to wait a bit, does anyone know when GPD will be expecting the release for the Windows device?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on December 29, 2015, 07:29:53 pm
Since it's only in design stages as far as I know, I wouldn't expect it before Q2 or Q3 2016.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on December 29, 2015, 09:12:38 pm
as we know, GPD usually present something like a prototype on April-May, and stores get the device for selling on august-september

they are on the first stage, designing the device, and if they're creating the mold too, then may take a little bit more time.

in another hand, my last concept design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuDxEKpYr74
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Verdugo on December 29, 2015, 10:10:04 pm
as we know, GPD usually present something like a prototype on April-May, and stores get the device for selling on august-september

they are on the first stage, designing the device, and if they're creating the mold too, then may take a little bit more time.

in another hand, my last concept design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuDxEKpYr74


Looks very nice. I prefer the sticks to be closer to the edge too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Rhusie on December 29, 2015, 10:25:08 pm
Okay, so the wife said she is cool with me getting the Linx Vision, but asked that I wait until after January.  Since we have a baby on the way, she wants to get the nursery finished first.  So, since I have to wait a bit, does anyone know when GPD will be expecting the release for the Windows device?

The Linx Vision looks like basically a standard 8" tablet with a controller attachment.  Unless it has something else special going on with it, you can just buy something like these for much less (just as an example, not particularly endorsing these products):

http://www.banggood.com/Cube-iWork8-Ultimate-32GB-Intel-Cherry-trail-Z8300-Quad-Core-1_8GHz-8-Inch-Windows-10-Tablet-p-1009393.html

http://www.banggood.com/Wireless-Bluetooth-Controller-Gamepad-Joystick-for-iOS-Android-Phone-Tablet-iPad-p-956065.html
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: lemmywinks on December 30, 2015, 12:27:54 am
The problem there is that the Ipega is a generic bluetooth pad with no xinput. For Windows games you really need the pad to be recognised as an XBox360 pad, you can work around this with x360ce but this hit and miss. Steelseries are releasing a bluetooth pad with xinput but apart from that there are no other options.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Rhusie on December 30, 2015, 02:00:03 am
The Steelseries doesn't clip so you might as well just use an Xbox controller at that point.  It does take a little more work to map and sometimes troubleshoot/Google-fu to get a game working properly with an xinput wrapper vs the plug & play immediacy of the alternative but they have their own issues anyway (games requiring 3rd party software anyway to remap keys, lack of support for decades of games prior to xinput existing).  Anyway, the only reason I butted in there is because as far as I can tell, the Linx is fully twice the cost which sounds like highway robbery to me.  I'd at least expect better specs on the tablet with that kind of markup.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 30, 2015, 04:12:44 am
The Linx Vision looks like basically a standard 8" tablet with a controller attachment.  Unless it has something else special going on with it, you can just buy something like these for much less (just as an example, not particularly endorsing these products):

http://www.banggood.com/Cube-iWork8-Ultimate-32GB-Intel-Cherry-trail-Z8300-Quad-Core-1_8GHz-8-Inch-Windows-10-Tablet-p-1009393.html

http://www.banggood.com/Wireless-Bluetooth-Controller-Gamepad-Joystick-for-iOS-Android-Phone-Tablet-iPad-p-956065.html

I already have the Chuwi Hi8 and the iPega 9023.  The iPega doesn't work with Xbox streaming, since it isn't seen as an Xbox controller.  It is why I have interest in the Linx Vision.  I agree, it looks like a system with an attached controller, but that's kind of the point.  I'd rather the GPD, if the keyboard is attached, but if it is going to be a few months, I can just get it then.

Honestly, I get bored of most of my stuff after a couple months anyway.  Wife only gives in to my crazy since the kids or other family get them after a few months. lol...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 30, 2015, 06:20:46 am
Okay, so the wife said she is cool with me getting the Linx Vision, but asked that I wait until after January.  Since we have a baby on the way, she wants to get the nursery finished first.  So, since I have to wait a bit, does anyone know when GPD will be expecting the release for the Windows device?

Wow Congratulation!!The release time is not sure,cause it is still on the design process,so we may need to wait for a period of time.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on December 30, 2015, 06:36:40 am
Wow Congratulation!!The release time is not sure,cause it is still on the design process,so we may need to wait for a period of time.

Thank you Kendy.  I've got 2 girls in the house right now (16 and 10), and we are having a boy.  About time!  :-)  I'm 44, so this is the last one too.

I'll get back in touch with you on the distributor stuff after the holidays.

I'm excited to see what you guys come up with.  It will be interesting.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on December 30, 2015, 08:41:19 pm



Hey. Could you do a render of the GPD XD with the keyboard (like on your latest one) but with speakers being next to the screen on the opposite sides like on the OpenPandora? I would like to see how it would look with that... Not saying that you should copy the OpenPandora, but I just want to see how the XD would look with those speakers
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on December 31, 2015, 03:42:56 am
Wow Congratulation!!The release time is not sure,cause it is still on the design process,so we may need to wait for a period of time.

Thank you Kendy.  I've got 2 girls in the house right now (16 and 10), and we are having a boy.  About time!  :-)  I'm 44, so this is the last one too.

I'll get back in touch with you on the distributor stuff after the holidays.

I'm excited to see what you guys come up with.  It will be interesting.

Wow,really a happiness family!! That's ok,and concerns,be free to contact me.enjoy your holiday!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on December 31, 2015, 10:52:59 am
Kendy, For your latest concept render you posted, Is it possible to get a top down (from above)  render image showing the controls and all the keys.  I did ask about 4-5 days via the tech email contact you posted , but got no response . 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on December 31, 2015, 11:53:15 pm
Formed a redesign of the Windows device.

(http://i.imgur.com/mRqtHUf.png)

Essentially, I moved the middle joysticks downward a little and made some further adjustments:

1. Volume and Brightness controls are vertical next to the Power button.
2. XYAB are allocated as Home, PageUp, PageDown, and End similarly as found on the Pandora/Pyra handheld. 
3. Select and Start are near XYAB and above Joystick2.
4. Control and Alt buttons neighbor on either side. Can be pushed simultaneously now.
5. Added Insert and Wifi/Bluetooth toggle buttons to the standard keyboard.

These precursory changes seem to solve a few issues I noticed in the original concept. Hope they are helpful.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 01, 2016, 12:03:17 am
I've been working on my own keyboard design as well.  I will post it when I finish updating it.

It has 5 rows of 13 keys , each key is 8mm x 5mm, and there is 2mm spacing between keys.   All keys are on the keyboard, non are on the game controls. And it leaves 13.5mm space on each side. 

I'm just looking for a good online (or offline) keyboard designer program to generate an image of it.. If anyone knows of such a program, let me know. Otherwise I'll have to resort to mocking something up in Gimp or something.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 01, 2016, 12:51:34 am
What if the bottom area under or between the physical sticks and buttons was another lcd panel?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: 10basetom on January 01, 2016, 05:34:55 am
The nubs should be concave, not convex. I'm fine with the keyboard where it is (keep in mind there are tons of utilities to disable the keyboard if you're worried about accidental presses when gaming).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 01, 2016, 11:51:07 am
i really hate the pandora layout for gaming. it is a very uncomfortable design in my opinion

anyway, there are the device list i designed until now.

Device without keyboard.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UPDth0dbOM8/VoZjbKpwFuI/AAAAAAAAWtI/ze5aXpHf2tg/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Prototype%252520%252528No%252520Keyboard%252529.jpg)

Front slider keyboard
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y_MS8LDvYvw/VoZjan1Y9HI/AAAAAAAAWtE/MNERcx5jUYQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Front%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

Side Slider keyboard
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dAltwYOn_Nc/VoZmhojr1yI/AAAAAAAAWts/74giO44Tbwc/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Side%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

Embebbed keyboard v1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7ttzFdKVcIg/VoZjZ4iitUI/AAAAAAAAWso/LIjMLb9Fruo/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Embebbed%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

Embebbed keyboard v2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b2qlLupywX8/VoZjZVFOQfI/AAAAAAAAWtA/1XAj9qwt6gY/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Embebbed%252520Keyboard%252520v2%252529_v1.jpg)

Embebbed keyboard v3
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fZYByqs-0mc/VoZjbfy3JqI/AAAAAAAAWs4/NhMGQyL2cN4/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Version%2525203_1.jpg)

GPD-XD2 New concept
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AIWBEngRKP4/VoZjbsgkQ6I/AAAAAAAAWss/hmWMfLsAhhI/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Version%2525203_2.jpg)

GPD-G59
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Suc1L03dvvk/VoZlZvsQtRI/AAAAAAAAWtk/FZJZaqggwJs/s800-Ic42/GPD-G59_V1.jpg)

GPD-G5 V2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RNUStsEGtHo/VoZlZlTv_BI/AAAAAAAAWtc/HO4GALKsc2c/s800-Ic42/GPD-G5_V2_2.jpg)

Detachable keyboard v1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oopkvayCuS4/VoZjbs63OPI/AAAAAAAAWs8/mZQc63lkhY4/s800-Ic42/Keyboard%252520addon%252520v1.jpg)

Detachable Keyboard v2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K6M8tNsI5QE/VoZjblhqsfI/AAAAAAAAWsw/h3fZJcam_d0/s800-Ic42/Keyboard%252520addon%252520v2.jpg)

Detachable keyboard v3 (this version is a moddified GPD-XD_2 version, for allow to fold the screen within the keyboard attached on the device)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FvoAwNhqO58/VoZjb1sgZbI/AAAAAAAAWs0/3ngeHZB6eEQ/s800-Ic42/Keyboard%252520addon%252520v3.jpg)

Docking concept
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-35Tv8Cfjyrc/VoZjZZKcSUI/AAAAAAAAWtM/2_kqgBehwjU/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Docking%252529_v1.jpg)

you can check these concepts here for more details.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXPqQ3mj-_IcZb115b0zlvMnHRNpSt--9

My prefered are:
- Device without keyboard
- Side Slider keyboard
- GPD-G5 V2

and my must have is: Docking Station!!!! :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 01, 2016, 12:40:10 pm
Deen0x, can you tell me please what modeling software you use?

I much prefer the control layout of the current GPD Render (similiar to the Pandora) , it puts all the controls in the most ergonomic positions.   

As for the the keyboard, as many people have said, the keyboard is crucial for many reasons, particularly to play whole genres of games like:  Adventure, Simulation, Role Playing, Strategy etc etc.  Not to mention it's needed if you plan to run any apps - as most apps on Windows(like the free Office for small screen devices) of course need a Keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 01, 2016, 01:32:06 pm
yes, no problem.

Sketchup.

http://www.sketchup.com/es
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 01, 2016, 03:08:43 pm
DeenOX,which are the key exactly the key in
The keyboard that you used to play games in Windows OS, and the combination with the control or gamepad.
I never play PC games in Windows with a keyboard.
Did we really need the whole keyboard interface beside for the full keyboard function for a laptop or desktop experience.
Agradecido
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 01, 2016, 05:46:50 pm
as i mentioned many times, i prefer a device WITHOUT keyboard as first release from GPD. something like current GPD-XD with windows WILL BE FINE for me.
currently i'm playing with Teclast X89 + iPega 9023, and I didn?t miss a keyboard.

but there are many users that they think is a "must be" on a windows device. I really don?t agree with this opinion, but as many users think this, i work on some alternatives of the device that include the keyboard, but Keeping in mind the gampead layout of current GPD-XD

and the pandora's layout, i don?t like. this is a non comfortable layout, is not for little hands and gampead is a secondary object in the layout (keyboard is the primary)

for this reason i'm working on alternatives that include keyboard, because i don?t want a big keyboard because for me (and i think for most users) is unuseful.

i think the best alternative for giving keyboard interface is something with sliders. The first message have a image that suggest this:

(http://boards.dingoonity.org/gpd-devices/windows-handheld-device/?action=dlattach;attach=4543;image)

based on this image, i think GPD can develop some sort of keyboard with slider system, then i really think slider will be the best solution for provide a comfortable keyboard for use within the device. (and my opinion is that a side slider keyboard will be the best solution)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 01, 2016, 06:11:53 pm
as i mentioned many times, i prefer a device WITHOUT keyboard as first release from GPD. something like current GPD-XD with windows WILL BE FINE for me.
currently i'm playing with Teclast X89 + iPega 9023, and I didn?t miss a keyboard.

but there are many users that they think is a "must be" on a windows device. I really don?t agree with this opinion, but as many users think this, i work on some alternatives of the device that include the keyboard, but Keeping in mind the gampead layout of current GPD-XD

and the pandora's layout, i don?t like. this is a non comfortable layout, is not for little hands and gampead is a secondary object in the layout (keyboard is the primary)

for this reason i'm working on alternatives that include keyboard, because i don?t want a big keyboard because for me (and i think for most users) is unuseful.

i think the best alternative for giving keyboard interface is something with sliders. The first message have a image that suggest this:

(http://boards.dingoonity.org/gpd-devices/windows-handheld-device/?action=dlattach;attach=4543;image)

based on this image, i think GPD can develop some sort of keyboard with slider system, then i really think slider will be the best solution for provide a comfortable keyboard for use within the device. (and my opinion is that a side slider keyboard will be the best solution)

I've been thinking today about replacing my Q9 with a Teclast X98 Pro and an ipega 9023.  I know this probably isn't the right thread to talk about it, but do you have some pros/cons of that combo over an XD?  I'll start a new thread somewhere else here if that makes more sense.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 01, 2016, 06:45:45 pm
start a new topic if you prefer.

i prefer a 8" device for playing with ipega 9023

10" is so big in my opinion. currently i have a Teclast X98 Pro, and prefer to use Teclast X89 instead, because their size.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Hagane023 on January 01, 2016, 07:24:04 pm
I agree, I have a chuwi vi8 and have just had a chuwi hi10 and the 10" is a bit too big for the ipega pg9023. I prefer a stand and handheld Bluetooth controller for the hi10 and the cherrytrail processor seems much better for gaming but bautrail was fine for me. I love the concept ideas, I like the g59  idea but with docking station that you pay for that has extra hardrive + usb port and slideable keyboard as an extra would be fine for me. I only think that if gpd could nail a control app that could let you choose between keyboard, gamepad, mouse or xinput for different situations, would mean that you would have no issues with gaming on steam/gog. Emulation would be great and not fussed with android side.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 01, 2016, 08:25:17 pm
start a new topic if you prefer.

i prefer a 8" device for playing with ipega 9023

10" is so big in my opinion. currently i have a Teclast X98 Pro, and prefer to use Teclast X89 instead, because their size.

Good to know, thank you.  I'll take a look at the X89.  I had to disassemble the Q9 again and unstick the "X" button, the button circuit board really needs better support behind it, there's just too much flex when you're mashing the buttons.  ;D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on January 02, 2016, 05:05:09 pm
Oh man I've been dreaming of devices like this. Was thinking about even getting a cheap 7" windows tablet and using one of those wide ipega controllers with it. But I'll wait if something like one of these might be on the horizon.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: onebitbeyond on January 02, 2016, 07:55:43 pm
This could be the best handheld ever, if GPD get it right.

I'd also like to add my voice to those who are anti-keyboard. It's not supposed to be a laptop, if you expect to do things like  word processing, there are multiple other far more suitable devices for that purpose. This is supposed to be a gaming device. Adding a keyboard will make it look more cluttered, introduce more components to add to the cost and add to the list of possible faults. I think the design would look cleaner and more mass market if it were kept simpler.

Windows 10 has a perfectly good touch keyboard, so good that you can buy Windows 10 tablets that rely solely on it. Why consider adding one to a gaming device? How about a dedicated button to bring up the Windows touch keyboard instead?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 02, 2016, 10:04:34 pm
There are entire Genres of Windows games that require a keyboard heavily.   You wouldn't be able to play them on a tiny awkward clamshell Virtual keyboard that takes up half the screen and covers most of the game.

The thing is, as I've explained and as others have explained previously, most game genres require a keyboard . Like Adventure, Role Playing, Strategy , Simulation (Fighter pilot types, flight sims, Tank commander sims, Submarine sims, and all other sim types)   etc all require a keyboard.  Have a look at the key mapping for Flight Sim and you'll get an idea of whats required to play a sim type game :   http://snomhf.exofire.net/data/FSX_KeyboardCommands.jpg. What a massive selling point a keyboard is going to be for gamers who like those game genres. The only genre that you could get away without a keyboard is Action.  And strangely enough , some of the few that mention that they don't need a keyboard, have mentioned action games that they will be playing.  How about not gimping it for everyone else that wants to play every other genre of games.  If the keyboard bothers you so much, hey , turn it off.

Of course having that keyboard in case you want to run a windows app (and most Windows apps need a keyboard), is just a bonus above what I said above.

Fortunately GPD must see what most of us here see, which is why they stated from the beginning that the device they are planning will have a keyboard.





Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 02, 2016, 10:13:59 pm
I dunno if you're going to be able to play sim games on a 5.5 inch screen atom handheld regardless of having a keyboard or not.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 02, 2016, 10:19:04 pm
The power of Cherry Trail should allow you to play a lot of games, but what ever power it lacks , will apply to all game genres including action.  You just wont be able to play latest really demanding games , but again, that covers action also. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 02, 2016, 10:32:11 pm
I don't necessarily agree. The atelier games on vita I've played are straight ports and while the ui could be a little bit bigger its perfectly fine. Lots of indie games that id be interested in playing would have UIs that would be fine in a handheld. Sim games are a bit different compared to other genres in that their UI is  generally far more complex.
PC gaming is much more varied these days than its staple genres.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: onebitbeyond on January 02, 2016, 10:43:34 pm
I think it's a fair argument to want a keyboard if you're going to want to play those types of games. I'm not sure how great an experience it would be on a small screen, with such a tiny keyboard, nor also how popular that type of experience would be.

Personally, I'm not interested in keyboard-heavy, mouse driven titles, so I'd prefer a device without a keyboard. I essentially want something that will play Steam in Big Picture Mode, and something that will be the best emulation device ever. Effectively I want a 360 controller with a 720p screen that runs Windows. There are countless Android devices like that, and I think one that ran Windows would be incredibly popular. I also think a physical keyboard will make it less desirable, a more niche product.

I'm not saying those who want a keyboard are wrong, just that maybe they're after something different to me (and also different to everything that GPD have made so far). :)

Oh, I should also add that Steam in-home streaming is good enough to make arguments about a device being powerful enough irrelevant. You'll be able to play the most demanding games on this via Valve's amazing streaming technology. Seriously, this could be the Steam Boy that many people crave.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 02, 2016, 10:48:08 pm
after thinking about this topic, and talking with other users, i found that a touchpad is a lot more useful than a keyboard.

as usual, i always start with my self as example. Usually i play on windows tablet + ipega9023. For now, i did not require a keyboard for any thing except maybe Windows key. My particular use is with classic desktop interface (i really don?t like tablet mode on windows), and we must agree that windows, in classic desktop, is not comfortable to use with fingers.

for this, usually i install TouchMousePointer (http://www.lovesummertrue.com/touchmousepointer/en-us/), that is a touchpad emulator, and with this is so much easy to use windows than using fingers.

based on the previous, i really think that a touchpad is better than keyboard on a gaming device like the GPD-XD2. Touchpad is an element that really will be used more than any keyboard.


There are some concepts based on this.

GPD-XD2 Touchpad v1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TBd2Uo7f9r8/Vobdptaw73I/AAAAAAAAWuE/2P6uGBNi4R8/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Touchpad%252520v1.jpg)

GPD-XD2 Touchpad v2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-io3uJ5kfWpc/Vobdp2Akl3I/AAAAAAAAWuA/UuTH8JzSnsQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Touchpad%252520v2.jpg)

And a version of the device with a keyboard that i think may be a good choice
GPD-XD2 Side Slider keyboard & touchpad
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1sQY0LeoBiA/VofGg4O-z0I/AAAAAAAAWuU/6zLMpkQSOeQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Keyboard%252520Side%252520Slider%252520And%252520Touchpad.jpg)


any other alternative based on big keyboard, really i don?t like it because lost gampead focus.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on January 02, 2016, 11:19:19 pm
Everyone has different needs. 

A tactile keyboard will broaden the utility of the device beyond video games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on January 02, 2016, 11:21:08 pm
A touchpad is a non sense in a device with a touchscreen.

A keyboard is a must have in old CRPG or adventure games. Slider keyboards are not useful for this games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 02, 2016, 11:28:43 pm
Deen0X, if anything, a touchpad goes against everything gameplay related. The main value of a physical keyboard is the tactile feedback - the same reason why the GPD XD utilizes physical buttons on an Android device.
On a side note, another screen means more battery drain, and the smaller it gets the less resolution it has for distinguishing between keystrokes. It simply isn't that practical compared to a keyboard.

Regarding the side-slider keyboard, I'll have to disagree with you on that end. Film yourself typing and using the keyboard and you'll immediately get what I mean, but I'll go in depth just to make my point:
When using the keyboard, both hands move all along the keyboard rather than on just one side. While there are keys that are most commonly used by only one hand, both of them will press almost all of them, or at least share some keys in the middle - so splitting the keyboard greatly detracts from the viability of having a keyboard. So, while a good concept in theory, a keyboard is simply too different to be considered just a second gamepad.

I still think the built in keyboard in the middle (BlackBerry style) or a front slider keyboard (Denn0X design) is the best. I can see argument for and against both. But I have to state that not having a keyboard on a Windows device is a major detriment to its viability, and I'd rather have a slightly more expensive functional device than a less expensive product that will need cumbersome add ons and cannot be fixed on the spot if something in the OS goes awry.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: onebitbeyond on January 02, 2016, 11:50:57 pm
That's something I'd not considered. Windows does go awry all the bloody time. Not having a keyboard would make dealing with that more difficult. Does anyone know how the keyboard-less Win 10 tablets deal with that?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on January 03, 2016, 12:04:13 am
That's something I'd not considered. Windows does go awry all the bloody time. Not having a keyboard would make dealing with that more difficult. Does anyone know how the keyboard-less Win 10 tablets deal with that?

There's a reason customers after purchasing one of those windows 8/10 tablets or Apple iPad also buy a keyboard case.

Tapping a touchscreen for anything more than short, feedback-less text input is not pleasurable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 03, 2016, 12:26:47 am
no, this is not a problem really. when you need to go back to windows, simply keep power button pressed, and you get to shutdown windows, and swipe up for get into windows again.

but this is easily solved with few extra buttons on the current layout of GPD-XD

put a Windows key, Contextual menu, Task manager and a key for show software keyboard, and you solve it.

really guys, adding a keyboard is not a good idea. i tried to solve it with my designs, but i keep that the best solution is no adding keyboard. is unuseless for 5~6 inches screen

do you really want to play old games (if you can boot, of course) that requires keyboard for playing? do you really think a mini or micro keyboard will be comfortable for playing?

this is a device focussed for playing with gamepad. keep in mind and don?t loose the focus.

adding a keyboard will convert this device in a niche gadget, like pandora, pyra, etc.

do you know SmachZ project? this is a very interesting project (that now is in "pause" state). This is a device focussed to play steam titles.

Let the GPD release a simple and direct device to play, to reach so many people. After this they can release another device with keyboard for more specific users. Reallyl i don?t think there are so much people that want to play old games that requires keyboard. sorry, but i can?t see this.

i asked to many friends of mine, that are involved as me within gaming devices for emulation, etc, and ALL OF THEM think is not necessary a keyboard for this device because they will not play those kind of games.

You are asking for a device for ALL kind of purpouses and i think is a wrong target. The device must be simple, a device for playing games with gamepad support. no more. Releasing something like this will get success even with people that don?t know this kind of devices.

Releasing a device with keyboard will relegate this device to the extinct netbooks and similars, that people today associate with low-cost and small size computers that don?t have power for move even a heavy webpage.

i keep my opinion on that GPD must focus on release a gaming device, with gaming controls, and avoid any other new implementation such keyboard. they must release something that reach more people, not only users like we that visit this kind of forums for info.


@ker

a touchpad has much more sense than a keyboard.
when you're using windows, is a big pain in the ass trying to interact with classic desktop with the touchscreen/fingers.
when small screen, worse is this.
for this reason, is better using a touchpad for these kind of interaction. windows touch interface (tablet) is not evolved for support all kind of apps, and you need to use classic desktop many times (more of the time).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 03, 2016, 12:39:53 am
The main difference between the Smach Zero and the GPD XD2 is that the Smach Zero uses the SteamOS, which limits you to -just- Steam and -just- Linux compatible games. That isn't such a bad selection in and of itself, mind you - it's still far greater than Android, but Windows is superior. Plus, Steam machines require actual minimal hardware that the GPD XD2 does NOT have, such as a graphics card.

And, well, the most common buttons (Task Manager etc.) can solve most (I guess ~80%) of problems that might arise. But for that off chance you'll need something more powerful, you're left with an non-functional device until you hook it up to a USB keyboard. It affects stability whether you like it or not, and it's a must for some of the older games. I don't think you can get around that - except narrowing down your target audience. But why would you? Why merging the concept of a gaming handheld and a functional Windows device so absurd? Because giving up or half-assing either the gamepad, or the keyboard will only work if you drop one aspect of the device - either gaming purpose or Windows OS.

To sum up, I hope for the last time - if we can make both of these work simultaneously, we'll make the ultimate handheld, which will have the largest library, and is functional for more than just games if you'd like.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 03, 2016, 12:54:52 am
yes, use SteamOS, but they will release the device for installing windows for any who want to install.

but in any case, the argument is the same. People get so interested on the device because they can play their steam games. no one ask for the team for adding keyboard, etc. even if users can install windows.

you consider that a device without keyboard is a non funcional device, and i dissagree. people trend to think that a device with windows must do anything that other device with windows can do, and is not true.
there are devices for gaming (gaming pc) other devices for internet browsing (netbooks?), other for multiporpouses, but nothing specialized (normal PC), other for portable tasks (notebooks, etc), other ... tablets, other gaming consoles, etc.
don?t wait for a "ultimate" device. there is no exist this, or almost no with low-cost parts.

if you want an ultimate device, you really want something like a Razer Edge pro, or an alienware PC, but in portable form... and you know how much money this can cost.

we are talking about a normal device, most probably with baytrail (or cherrytrail, but i'm not sure if a good idea this option) for playing games with gamepad support, and keep in low-price.

let to GPD to release a device, and let them to evolve this device (as usual) adding more features. I really think they can release two kind of devices, one for gamepad oriented in first stage, then other similar to pandora on second stage.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 03, 2016, 01:10:03 am
Please keep the keyboard, mirror an approximate setup as the Pandora/pyra. It has excellent game controls and a fair keyboard. I see no reason why something similar can't be done.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 03, 2016, 01:34:28 am
because is not better gamepad layout than current GPD-XD design.
Pandora layout is less comfortable, and more for small hands.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 03, 2016, 03:01:22 am
A touchpad is something I wanted on the original Android GPD XD to help lessen fingerprints on the screen.
With Windows, a keyboard would be far more useful. Touch screen for mouse is just fine for Windows 10 and you could always try using the right stick as a mouse of you really need to see your mouse pointer (if they add in the ability to use right stick as mouse). Use of a keyboard is pretty much required for a decent Windows experience as a touch keyboard just won't work as well since Windows isn't 100% touch focused like Android is. You might barely get by with web surfing on a touch keyboard, but things like decent word processing, keyboard shortcuts for productivity applications and normal PC games (not console ports), and command prompt/maintenance work/coding would need a physical keyboard in order to not be incredibly frustrating.

Besides, sticking in a keyboard would make this closer to the UMPCs of old (but much cheaper and more gaming focused) and that would just be a real delight in 2016.

Anyway, it'd probably be great if GPD could produce two versions. One with the keyboard and one that just reuses the XD's case but with x86 chips and Windows installed.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: onebitbeyond on January 03, 2016, 08:06:01 am
Use of a keyboard is pretty much required for a decent Windows experience as a touch keyboard just won't work as well since Windows isn't 100% touch focused like Android is. You might barely get by with web surfing on a touch keyboard, but things like decent word processing, keyboard shortcuts for productivity applications and normal PC games (not console ports), and command prompt/maintenance work/coding would need a physical keyboard in order to not be incredibly frustrating.

I think we'll have to disagree that most people would use a 5.5" screen for those tasks. That really shouldn't be the focus of this device. It's for games, not coding or word processing. If this is designed as an all purpose mini-laptop, it will seriously restrict its market. I think there's a real chance here to make something that a much larger section of the gaming community have wanted for a long time, ie a Vita/3DS form factor handheld that runs Windows.

I use my Surface Pro without a keyboard a lot of the time, and it's completely fine. I don't "barely get by" with it, I can do pretty much everything I want to, certainly as much as you'd do on an Android device. Again though, I don't think the usage pattern for a Surface and an XD-alike Windows device are anywhere near the same.

I think Deenox is right (apart from the bit about requiring a touchpad). This forum is a niche forum, and if GPD follow some of the opinions on here, they will create a device targeted at this niche audience that wants to run old DOS text RPGs. The broader audience for a simplified device will be left cold, and the device won't live up to its potential.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 03, 2016, 08:15:56 am
This is a gaming device.  I can't think of a single use for a touchpad to be applicable here without shoehorning its use.  Having said that, if you have any reasonable ideas, im certainly all ears.  One would presume, that a windows powered gaming handheld would run windows, likely have a built in launcher, or use steam big picture mode for navigation (the logical use case since steam supports not steam games seamlessly).  The keyboard offers functionality for games that use keyboard input, as well as provides a chatpad for text entry in games and chat.  Of course, you could use it for any purpose you like, and if that includes as a micro laptop, far be it from me to tell you no.  Of course there are several apps that will turn your touchscreen into a touchpad, so there's that.  Simply not enough real estate to put a touchpad anywhere but on the back, and we saw how well that worked on the vita.  It seems unreasonable to require a touchpad simply to avoid fingerprints on the screen at what would be a substantial cost (monetary + opportunity costs).  You're better served buying an oleophobic screen protector, or investing in decent stick on screen wipe.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: postexitus on January 03, 2016, 12:04:45 pm
Old strategy and adventure games require mouse input and using touch screen in clam shell is not ideal. A touchpad enabled by touching the keyboard (ala ps3 bluetooth keyboard) would be ideal without consuming extra space.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on January 03, 2016, 12:08:07 pm
Please keep the keyboard, mirror an approximate setup as the Pandora/pyra. It has excellent game controls and a fair keyboard. I see no reason why something similar can't be done.

Every indication thus far from GPD is their next device will have Windows and a full keyboard. Finally, a gaming "handheld" PC that doesn't use ARM.

Given their latest concept, the game controls look to be in comfortable positions with the included keyboard rows having no negative bearing on their ergonomics. Even appears to be an improvement over the XD actually, specifically where the dpad and XYAB are now. Though the keyboard keys in the early GPD design look a little small, there are several ways to answer this minor problem(if it even is a problem given the possible case size increase from the XD's smaller screen).

Some theoretical examples for increasing keyboard key length are:
1. Separating the | and \ from their own distinctive key to Fn with [ and Fn with ]
2. Moving the ` and ~ to under Fn with ; and Fn with '
3. Moving Delete to Fn with Backspace.
4. Turning Fn with Spacebar into Caps Lock so we can move Escape and Tab each down one row.


 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 03, 2016, 02:25:05 pm
While I respect things said by deen0x on many handhelds, in this specific situation, I think he is incorrect. For a desktop OS, and being a clamshell, you kinda need a physical keyboard. The small screen, where you grip it at the wrong angle for thumb typing is a bad thing.

The Pandora style layout may not be ideal, but it works really well from experience. I have larger hands and have no problem. The alternative of attempting type a document or even web browse the same way you have to do on the XD almost removes half the benefit of having a desktop OS. I do like the primary gain of Windows and x86 optimized games on a handheld, but if you limit the optimized uses to primarily gaming by reducing its PC functions, you are doing any other potential owners a disservice.

From the sounds of the conversation about how the keyboard would hinder anything at all, it sounds like those that bring up the arguments haven't used a Pandora, if you had, you would know, the keyboard doesn't get in the way of the gaming. And the XD, while being a fine device, isn't the best example possible of comfortable gaming. It's by no means uncomfortable, but the goal should be use ability with least sacrifice and maintain a good experience.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on January 03, 2016, 09:55:38 pm
waoh i'm late to this thread!

baytrail/cherry trail would be great for a sub 6" device but my dream x86 gaming tab would be

7.9" 4:3 1st gen ipad mini screen
amd a6 micro-6400t
4GB DDR3
64GB ssd
2x sd card slots

the amd apu will use more power but will be probably just as cheap and have more gpu power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_TCazmuUHU

as you can see 1st gen baytrail to and mid range a4 micro nearly doubled fps...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjASoXypjYA

baytrail will use less power for sure, but the a4 doesnt use much power about 10W with a 14" panel. With a slight tdp adjustment and smaller panel it could be around 8W for total power Draw and assuming a large ~40Whr battery it could last ~5 hours.


just watch the 1st video and let  portable DBZ sink in...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on January 03, 2016, 10:05:09 pm
Pandora/Pyra layout is just great. Nice game controllers and a great keyboard to play classic RPG (or whatever you want).

I don't care about a touchpad if I've a touch screen. I don't want this device to write a Word. I just want it to play emulators and enjoy my Steam collection.

GPD, just look at Pyra handheld. It's not in a production state and it has a lot of preorders. It just rocks!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 03, 2016, 10:06:55 pm
Actually, that's a good point. While the AMD CPUs are inferior to the Intel ones in regular computer terms, they do have a beefier integrated GPU, and it does benefit greatly the lower end machines.
It does bring in more factors for consideration, but AMD isn't a bad choice to say the least.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Grebbin77 on January 03, 2016, 11:00:57 pm
I would never buy a GPD windows device.  Does anyone believe GPD will pay Microsoft to license their OS?  I already don't like that the GPD devices come with HappyChick (warez) pre installed, but at least Android is free for manufacturers to use.  A clean ROM such as Skelton's make the Android devices at least legit.  When the whole OS is pirated... I can not support that.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 03, 2016, 11:09:46 pm
well, they must be clear about on which kind of device can offer a free windows 10 licence.
currently, devices with screen up to 10" have free licences.

if the case, then they will not get problems with licenses.

but in case that there is any problem, they can simply offer a device within preinstalld windows 10, but not activated, and you must enter a valid windows 10 licence for activate it. Similar way some TV-Sticks with windows preinstalled are selling. for example, there is MeegoPad that you can purchase, and come with windows pre-installed, but not activated, because is a device without screen and can?t offer a free licence of windows.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: bentodd2000 on January 04, 2016, 12:34:32 am
I don't think the licensing would be a problem. Like was said before any screen under 10" is a free license for windows 10 with Bing. MSFT is pushing out windows to independent manufacturers especially Chinese companies. I think as long as it doesn't contain roms they will be ok.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 04, 2016, 07:02:05 am
oem licensing for windows 10 is free for arm/x86 mobile class devices.  This thing is going to be a beast.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 04, 2016, 07:27:34 am
Isn't Office also free for small screen devices?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: a330boy on January 04, 2016, 03:09:59 pm
Did another variation(previous is post #210 on page15 btw).

Some changes:
1. Moved infrequent | and \ and ` and ~ to Fn with [  and ] and Fn with ; and " respectively. Options that may help increase overall keyboard key size.
2. Moved Select and Start to a more centered position like on a standard game controller.
3. Insert could be Fn with Backspace if necessary.

(http://i.imgur.com/AEQQxlY.png)

 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: R2112 on January 04, 2016, 03:33:12 pm
A small thumb board is incredibly useful to a Windows mini device.
For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Q1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Q1)
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/new-sony-vgn-ux1xn-micro-pc-coming-to-europe/ (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/new-sony-vgn-ux1xn-micro-pc-coming-to-europe/)
http://www.cnet.com/products/oqo-model-01/specs/ (http://www.cnet.com/products/oqo-model-01/specs/)

A slider from the bottom with a keyboard would be nifty, though most likely wouldn't work.
A mixture of the http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_ericsson_xperia_play-3608.php (http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_ericsson_xperia_play-3608.php) and a Sony UX (the second link) in a clam shell would be perfect.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 04, 2016, 11:46:30 pm
A small thumb board is incredibly useful to a Windows mini device.
For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Q1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Q1)
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/new-sony-vgn-ux1xn-micro-pc-coming-to-europe/ (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/07/new-sony-vgn-ux1xn-micro-pc-coming-to-europe/)
http://www.cnet.com/products/oqo-model-01/specs/ (http://www.cnet.com/products/oqo-model-01/specs/)

A slider from the bottom with a keyboard would be nifty, though most likely wouldn't work.
A mixture of the http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_ericsson_xperia_play-3608.php (http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_ericsson_xperia_play-3608.php) and a Sony UX (the second link) in a clam shell would be perfect.
i had a ux1 variant, and the screen was nearly destroyed after a couple months. Clamshell is where it's at in terms of mobile device. It offers more protection an is likely to be magnitudes easier to engineer than a slider, and from experience, less prone to damage from improper handling, storage, and dropping. Towards the end of my Xperia plays life it was quite loose, and eventually snapped in half.

The keyboard on the ux1 btw was quite good, but goddamn it was expensive, think I paid $1200 for mine
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 04, 2016, 11:51:41 pm
If the keyboard area was a screen, it could be a keyboard, touch interface for coleco, intellivision, or DS, or anything you can imagine.  Why limit it?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 05, 2016, 12:11:22 am

If the keyboard area was a screen, it could be a keyboard, touch interface for coleco, intellivision, or DS, or anything you can imagine.  Why limit it?
Eww, no thank you. Physical input buttons/keys only please. At least for the primary inputs.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 05, 2016, 12:37:40 am
i second a 2nd smaller touchscreen. DS style.  We keep the physical game controls, and get a button to trigger a soft keyboard, like holding down the mapper button.  toshiba had a really nice laptop that featured dual screens, with teh 2nd providing a custom keyboard.  Its only failure was its 3 hour battery life...

(http://www.likecool.com/Gear/Laptop/Toshiba%20Libretto%20W100%20Dualscreen%20Laptop/Toshiba-Libretto-W100-Dualscreen-Laptop.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 05, 2016, 12:57:57 am

If the keyboard area was a screen, it could be a keyboard, touch interface for coleco, intellivision, or DS, or anything you can imagine.  Why limit it?
Eww, no thank you. Physical input buttons/keys only please. At least for the primary inputs.

Right, I'm only thinking keyboard area here, not dpad, analogs, or buttons.  Sort of like the DS.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 05, 2016, 01:17:33 am
Think I mentioned something about the bottom having a screen in the earlier pages, but was ignored. Personally I think a screen could be used as long as we keep the gaming buttons. It could be kept small and maybe programmable to only display the keys that people need that are saved to different profiles, sort of like what Razer wanted to do with the Switchblade. Display a keyboard for typing, your most used keyboard shortcuts, game hotkeys or controls, or use as a trackpad for people who were wanting one.
The point is to keep the screen clear of clutter like on-screen keyboards and also be more comfortable than shifting your hands to the top.
I think this would be expensive to develop though :/
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 05, 2016, 01:31:49 am
Could be, im sure it would add at least 50$ to the price just in hardware, not to mention the drivers necessary to function, though in windows it could just be a second monitor, and only need a light application to provide the keyboard, shortcuts, and extra functions available on the 2nd monitor only.  The more i think about it, the difficulty factor isn't nearly as high because of windows, and the cost is mostly going to be in the hardware and implementation...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 01:41:33 am
GPD is a device manufacturer, not a tech researcher.
This mean that GPD can create devices joining things that already exist.
currently, an android gaming console is, basically, a SoC + screen (a tablet in short) + a gampead, and little pieces of software for make them to work (basically, add the drivers provided by manufacturers of each part, if android don?t have a native support)

they join these elements and create a mold for them.

they will not develop or research a gamepad or a screen for include on their device. simply they buy parts such a SoC, put a screen, and a gamepad, all of them that buy on mass scale, and create the new device.

about the second screen that some are commenting, there are many reasons because this is not a good idea (for implementation).
- there is no keyboards on the market that are a touch interface and you simply plug by USB to your computer and work. Please, understand what i mean with this. If there is any keyboard on the market that don?t require that the operating system manage it, then you can consider it as alternative, but as i know there is nothing like this that work alone as keyboard (as example, think on any keyboard with touch interface that you can plug on windows, mac, linux, android, and works without problems and without installing any specific driver, etc)
- adding another screen implies that GPD must write specific software (driver) for controlling this, and give support too. There is some devices with two screens, but without so much success.

now, GPD show to us some designs
(http://boards.dingoonity.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11115.0;attach=4540;image)
(http://boards.dingoonity.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11115.0;attach=4542;image)
(http://boards.dingoonity.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11115.0;attach=4544;image)
(http://boards.dingoonity.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11167.0;attach=4581;image)

based on these designs we can count that they will consider:
- include a tap-keyboard (the first image)
- Include a camera (this is not new)
- Include a mini/micro keyboard
- Include a slider system for keyboard and/or controls.

we can think that they can consider too on a touchpad, because is a standard interface

now, based on this, we are discussing on this thread about which elements may be consider on the new GPD.  (this is like mounting a lego structure, using the elements that exist and giving a form to the device. we are not developing new pieces)

I like to read this thread and know what people want to suggest to include on the new device, but we must be consecuent about what we are talking about.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 01:44:53 am
If the keyboard area was a screen, it could be a keyboard, touch interface for coleco, intellivision, or DS, or anything you can imagine.  Why limit it?

nop. if you think on this, then you want a standard tablet. no a gamepad.

this kind of devices are preciselly the evolution of gaming on standard tablet, where physical controls appears as a need of many users. adding a touch screen for replacing controls are a back step on this evolution.

i'm absolutely against on playing on touch screens when i can play with real controls.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 05, 2016, 12:25:33 pm
If the keyboard area was a screen, it could be a keyboard, touch interface for coleco, intellivision, or DS, or anything you can imagine.  Why limit it?

nop. if you think on this, then you want a standard tablet. no a gamepad.

this kind of devices are preciselly the evolution of gaming on standard tablet, where physical controls appears as a need of many users. adding a touch screen for replacing controls are a back step on this evolution.

i'm absolutely against on playing on touch screens when i can play with real controls.

I never said we should take away the controls, I was specific when I said "keyboard area". ;)

I was thinking a device with a primary screen, all of the physical controls like on the XD but with a second screen in the area of the keyboard in your mockup.  :)

Similar to this:

(http://i.imgur.com/7G7t9rL.png)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 12:33:11 pm
yes, but as i said, and others too, there are some things that will consider.
adding a controller (software, driver, etc) for this second display. GPD is a device manufacturer, not software developer.

yes, may be a good idea, i recognize this, but so hard to be implemented.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Chimera on January 05, 2016, 01:15:40 pm
GPD is a device manufacturer, not a tech researcher.
This mean that GPD can create devices joining things that already exist.
currently, an android gaming console is, basically, a SoC + screen (a tablet in short) + a gampead, and little pieces of software for make them to work (basically, add the drivers provided by manufacturers of each part, if android don?t have a native support)

Thank you for being the one to say this - it's great for people to describe their dream device, but they have to be realistic about what's manageable for a small Chinese company.  GPD isn't Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft, they're not going to be producing bespoke hardware and software the way some people are expecting. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 05, 2016, 01:35:23 pm
GPD is a device manufacturer, not a tech researcher.
This mean that GPD can create devices joining things that already exist.
currently, an android gaming console is, basically, a SoC + screen (a tablet in short) + a gampead, and little pieces of software for make them to work (basically, add the drivers provided by manufacturers of each part, if android don?t have a native support)

Thank you for being the one to say this - it's great for people to describe their dream device, but they have to be realistic about what's manageable for a small Chinese company.  GPD isn't Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft, they're not going to be producing bespoke hardware and software the way some people are expecting.

You realize that Windows has native multi-head support right?  Lol. Android has multi-head support as well.  GPD has done some SW development, integrations and drivers don't happen by themselves.  No matter, it was just an idea. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 05, 2016, 02:08:01 pm
GPD is a device manufacturer, not a tech researcher.
This mean that GPD can create devices joining things that already exist.
currently, an android gaming console is, basically, a SoC + screen (a tablet in short) + a gampead, and little pieces of software for make them to work (basically, add the drivers provided by manufacturers of each part, if android don?t have a native support)

Thank you for being the one to say this - it's great for people to describe their dream device, but they have to be realistic about what's manageable for a small Chinese company.  GPD isn't Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft, they're not going to be producing bespoke hardware and software the way some people are expecting.

You realize that Windows has native multi-head support right?  Lol. Android has multi-head support as well.  GPD has done some SW development, integrations and drivers don't happen by themselves.  No matter, it was just an idea. :)

Agreed.  My point earlier was the same.  Its just another display that would be natively supported in windows.  We can probably assume they have the expertise to design and fit it.  GPD wrote their screen mapping software (again assumed), so they're not just piecing things together into a 3d printed case.  Barring the obvious api changes (.net vs android sdk), this doesnt' seem out of their reach.  Having said all that though, you're right deenox, its unlikely that we would see a dual screen device.  I think its more likely because the cost increase would decrease their bottom line based on total number of sales, and increase support costs.  It wouldn't be likely be worth the time to develop the extras.  If attitudes in this forum are any indication, people don't seem to want new innovation, they want an evolution of what they know.  For a gaming portable, I'm not necessarily disagreeing.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 02:17:11 pm
GPD is a device manufacturer, not a tech researcher.
This mean that GPD can create devices joining things that already exist.
currently, an android gaming console is, basically, a SoC + screen (a tablet in short) + a gampead, and little pieces of software for make them to work (basically, add the drivers provided by manufacturers of each part, if android don?t have a native support)

Thank you for being the one to say this - it's great for people to describe their dream device, but they have to be realistic about what's manageable for a small Chinese company.  GPD isn't Nintendo or Sony or Microsoft, they're not going to be producing bespoke hardware and software the way some people are expecting.

You realize that Windows has native multi-head support right?  Lol. Android has multi-head support as well.  GPD has done some SW development, integrations and drivers don't happen by themselves.  No matter, it was just an idea. :)

yes, have multi display support, but this mean that the SoC only have integrated graphics output for panel (touch) and other for HDMI.
if you put another screen, you can use the HDMI as internal output, but will lose HDMI output of the device.
and this output only is for video, not for touch interface.
adding touch interface or another display without losing the HDMI output, mean another pbc, another video driver, etc.

there are other problems associated to this. if you run a windows game, on which screen will be displayed? some games only run on primary display, or cannot run if there are multiple displays, etc. there are more problems, not only related to implementing a driver for keyboard or another controls in touch way.

android, there are other problems. i don?t know any common device that run android, and have two different screens. currently, we can have android with mirror image on HDMI output, but you can?t configure for multi-display scenario, unless you develop specific software (driver, interfaces, etc) for this purpouse.

again, i think is a good idea but hard to implement.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 05, 2016, 04:33:52 pm
I remember there was a dual screen clamshell Android phone at some point but I can't remember what it was called. I do know LG recently announced their V10 phone having a second screen above the main screen for displaying additional information. Lastly, I believe Japan or Korea or both have Android flip phones with two screens; one on the outside and one inside.

But yeah I already realized that something like a smaller second screen would be expensive to both develop and support after release. I just want for there to be some way for them to include an integrated keyboard that can be accessed at any time and comfortably.
Deen0x's slider designs look cool, but also look uncomfortable,  unwieldly, and unstable to actually use due to the fact that the device is also a clamshell. A slider wouldn't be able to handle the weight of the main body and the top half for the long term. If this just was just a slider only device like the many, many unreleased OCOSMOS UMPC prototypes, then those designs would work well.

EDIT: Speaking of OCOSMOS, they had this prototype:
(http://www.revioo.com/media/images/news/1/20877.jpg)

Though seperate here, they toyed with the idea of using a smaller screen for the keyboard and possibly other uses. Those square things on either side are......analog dpads?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 05, 2016, 05:38:05 pm
I remember there was a dual screen clamshell Android phone at some point but I can't remember what it was called. I do know LG recently announced their V10 phone having a second screen above the main screen for displaying additional information. Lastly, I believe Japan or Korea or both have Android flip phones with two screens; one on the outside and one inside.

But yeah I already realized that something like a smaller second screen would be expensive to both develop and support after release. I just want for there to be some way for them to include an integrated keyboard that can be accessed at any time and comfortably.
Deen0x's slider designs look cool, but also look uncomfortable,  unwieldly, and unstable to actually use due to the fact that the device is also a clamshell. A slider wouldn't be able to handle the weight of the main body and the top half for the long term. If this just was just a slider only device like the many, many unreleased OCOSMOS UMPC prototypes, then those designs would work well.

EDIT: Speaking of OCOSMOS, they had this prototype:
(http://www.revioo.com/media/images/news/1/20877.jpg)

Though seperate here, they toyed with the idea of using a smaller screen for the keyboard and possibly other uses. Those square things on either side are......analog dpads?

I believe you're thinking of the kyocera echo.  Along with the Libretto W100, I also owned the sprint version of the echo.  The common theme wiht multiscreen mobile devices to date has been piss poor battery life.  Deenox, in my recollection of the echo, with gingerbread, you absolutely needed kyocera's custom display software. 

For a windows based handheld, the touch interface on the 2nd screen could use USB HID for native driverless support (single touch, or driver for multitouch).  I have a 7" multitouch capacitive display connected to one of my raspberry PIs this way.  Im not familiar at all with the atom development boards, so i dont know what output options are pinned.   Even if we had only two outputs, I would leave hdmi out for dual display any day.  I've been running with 4 monitors and 2 gpus (until recently, thanks to the gtx 980) and have yet to run into any games that fails to work.   As far as windows handling multiheaded systems in gaming, MOST games default to the windows defined primary monitor, if they don't give you an option for which display to use.  The more i think about it, the less difficulty this seems to present technically.  The software implementation for the "special functionality" presents most of the challenge.  But think of what doors it opens for developing custom interfaces and software to take advantage of the form factor.  Im wishing big here, GPD, i hope you're considering this! 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 05, 2016, 06:05:29 pm
Second screen = Larger power consumption = Bigger battery so it can run for more than 4 hours = heavier device.

Even the DS doesn't boast a good battery life, and it uses 2 low-res screens and low-end CPU and GPUs. Not to mention, I think a physical keyboard beats touchscreen - especially with Windows. Say you need to get into the BIOS or fix a boot problem - a touch keyboard will not suffice, to say the least. Even though it would be awesome for (one) system emulation, it's not something I would trade the keyboard with.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 05, 2016, 06:53:59 pm
Second screen = Larger power consumption = Bigger battery so it can run for more than 4 hours = heavier device.

Even the DS doesn't boast a good battery life, and it uses 2 low-res screens and low-end CPU and GPUs. Not to mention, I think a physical keyboard beats touchscreen - especially with Windows. Say you need to get into the BIOS or fix a boot problem - a touch keyboard will not suffice, to say the least. Even though it would be awesome for (one) system emulation, it's not something I would trade the keyboard with.

More than one system.  Nintendo DS, Intellivision overlays, ColecoVision overlays, customizable on(second)screen buttons to compliment the physical controls.  There is a large number of potential uses.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 05, 2016, 07:00:46 pm
Yes, because you would constantly be booting into the bios of your handheld gaming system on the go.  Perfectly logical.  :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 05, 2016, 07:22:16 pm
Of course I won't constantly be entering the BIOS, but it has its uses. If Windows doesn't boot, and that isn't that of a rare occurrence, you need a keyboard. When the XD2 enters the end of its life cycle, I'm sure many (or at least me) will try to OC it, because hey - Windows. Entering the BIOS and interacting with the OS lets you become a power user, since unlike Android you can alter system values on-the-fly.

Again, I'm not saying a touchscreen is bad - it just pales in comparison of the keyboard, and they're vying for the same space.

Also, the overlays for 8 bit systems were a bit... underdeveloped. You can play most games with 2 buttons, and most of the overlay simply showed a keypad. Again, it improves authenticity and is better than just a regular control scheme, but it isn't really integral for emulation - unlike the DS. I also remembered the DreamCast's VMU, so you're totally correct it's more than one system - but again, not really integral.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 07:44:09 pm
well, based on my experience, the better choice on *trail systems is underclock the system to get better stability, most when is plugged to power.

BIOS can be accessed without problems within an external usb keyboard. users will not be common on changing options on the BIOS, for sure.
and well, some BIOS are really limited on these kind of devices.
and there is a warning about this. Most systems based on cherry or baytrail, with some power options on their bios, are so dangerous for touching because there is always some option that fullbrick the device.

i get some examples. My MeeGooPad T01 bricked when changed some option for reduce power consumption. Now is full bricked and i can?t recover it unless buy a programmer.
the same for many Teclast X89. Teclast release some new BIOS with new options, that include some power tweaks. I get many users asking to me about how to recover their bricked devices, because touch some options that come within this new BIOS, and there is no way, except buying a programmer.

and there are other similar cases, where users touch some BIOS options, and get bricked their devies.

As i understand, these options are not fully tested and/or are not working well.

I didn't see any thread about overclocking *trail systems. i recommend to avoid touching these kind of settings because are so dangerous in general on these kind of devices.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 05, 2016, 10:16:07 pm
I wonder when we will hear more about this .  GPD have been a little silent lately .  Hopefully we hear more soon.



Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 05, 2016, 10:24:46 pm
Well, Deen0X, this is a matter of personal preference and technical ability. You are correct most users won't do it, but having the option to do it is paramount to shipping to a stronger device at the same cost.
Also, there are commercial touchscreens that you can plug into the device and they'll fill the niche for a second screen. It won't be portable, but it's an option that you can consider if you're also considering plugging in a USB keyboard. In terms of weight, compatibility, power consumption and general usage - as far as I can see - the keyboard wins by a large margin. And while it's easier and cheaper to get a USB keyboard than to get a touchscreen, the cost of integrating those devices is added to the cost of the GPD XD2 - so it's not really improving things.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 05, 2016, 11:17:59 pm
sometimes i feel lost. most probably because my english is not enough for make me to explain myself.

from all variants, my prefered is simple gamepad layout with some extra buttons. something like current GPD-XD plus extra buttons (about 4, no more)

my second preference is touchpad. i really think is more useful than a mini-keyboard. Windows in classic mode is not comfortable to be used with fingers on the touch screen, then using a touchpad improve a lot the experience of usage.

my second preference is a little keyboard, that don?t moddify the current XD gampad layout. I really don?t think a keyboard similar that GPD show on their prototype will bring a good experience for usage, or almost, better experience than smallest keyboard.
In my opinion, a 7" device is suitable for a good size keyboard.

i really don?t think that adding a second screen is a good idea, thinking on GPD as manufacturer. i found many problems on implementing this from them. chinese manufacturers will use tested and know alternatives on the market for creating "new devices" that simply join pieces that they have on the market.

maybe GPD can surprise to us with other things such second screen, etc... but until they mention something about viability about this, i will avoid considering this.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 06, 2016, 12:31:15 am
As I was explaining to someone else outside this forum, nobody's idea is better than another. Some come down to possibility, but most are just ideas and all are basically preference.

The small sample here is not representing the number at large, unless these are custom built for each individual. So they are probably targeting mass appeal.

I respect other ideas, and hold each as valid and worth talking about even if I disagree. A reasonable observer such as GPD should take all ideas as just that, ideas. Each with their own merit but most importantly preference.

Please keep that in mind.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 06, 2016, 02:00:55 am
I love GPDs last render and idea. The keyboard could be simplified a little , but other than that, the style, the kb and the control layout is awesome.   

Hopefully we get more info from GPD soon like proposed specs etc.


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: xitongzou on January 06, 2016, 07:38:56 pm
I'm still partial to the Vulcan Flipstart layout: I've used it on many Windows games with much success, but just wish that the space/ctrl/action keys could be closer to the the mouse right/left click buttons then it would be perfect.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 06, 2016, 07:50:27 pm
please, don't duplicate posts...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 02:31:32 am
New Design Concept

GPD-G59v2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6IrvuvbBYc

This is another design concept based on GPD-58 (PSVita Style)
This time there are some new elements:
- Screen slider, for discover a full layout keyboard.
- L2 and R2 in vertical Layout.
- 3x2 button layout in Arc layout, for easy acces within thumb. This layout i specific for fighting games based on Street Fighter button layout. For this reason buttons Z and C are different to ABXY, they are concave for easy recognition with thumb.
- Viertical stand leg
- Stylus pen, for better/more precise interaction.
- Leds for main actions/states.
- Included two USB 3.0 ports (or almost, one 3.0 and one 2.0) for direct connection of devices.
- Biggest DPAD than GPD-XD
- Button Bar with common buttons for gamepad, windows and android.

personally, i really prefer this form factor for portable gaming console than NDS style. I like this concept, because keep the gamead layout comfortable, and bring a full layout keyboard with a good size (is not a micro-mini keyboard) for people that want this.

Zalu2!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 07, 2016, 04:20:38 am
Gotta be honest, out of all your Windows handheld designs this is the only one I actually like. It's similar to Vita but also hearkens back to the slider type UMPCs of old. Your stylus slot placement is interesting, but will this mean this would be a resistive screen? That would actually be MUCH better for a windows device and should probably be cheaper for GPD to implement as well.
It looks comfortable for both gaming AND typing and it doesn't look like it'll be unstable or floppy. The only problem might be the L2 and R2 buttons as they look like they're in a weird position, but I'm probably just seeing them wrong.
I'm going to assume here that GPD will stick to the clamshell design, which I have no issues with, but it'll be great if they can take this design as a basis for their next model.
Though with this design, there should MOGA Hero style OR Tapwave Zodiac mini analog sticks with clicky L3/R3 instead of analog nubs with a separate button. And likely sunken in a bit to help preserve the devices portability. The device looks like it'll be thick enough to support a clicky analog stick.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 07, 2016, 05:40:18 am
As per the other slider concept design, it's not practical. Mainly because of these reasons

1)  You lose a lot of portability , the device would be about 221mm wide (almost 9 inches), ie > 66mm wider than the GPD XD. It would not fit in a pocket.  And if it's not pocketable, then it starts being questioned as to why you wouldn't go a tablet sized device with pontoon grips and a bigger better screen. I'd like to keep the pocketability of the clamshell design

2)  I hate controls in a vertical line , the controls on the bottom are IMO the most un- ergonomical position controls can be. They force my thumbs to crane down super uncomfortably. 

3) Because the keyboard is indented heavily due to the controls on either side, you wont be able to reach the centre of the keyboard - remember it's 9 inches wide.  You would find that you have to hold the bottom of the device to use the keyboard, which would be awefull , as the whole device would be  leveraging/pivoting from the edge you are holding it on, while your trying to type. Youd be trying to hold it from rotating and falling out of your hands with your thumbs, while at the same time, trying to type with your thumbs. You would also then not be able to use the controls and keyboard, like you would need to in a simulator game where you would need the controls and keyboard.

A SLIDER IS NOT VIABLE


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 09:24:52 am
Gotta be honest, out of all your Windows handheld designs this is the only one I actually like. It's similar to Vita but also hearkens back to the slider type UMPCs of old. Your stylus slot placement is interesting, but will this mean this would be a resistive screen? That would actually be MUCH better for a windows device and should probably be cheaper for GPD to implement as well.
It looks comfortable for both gaming AND typing and it doesn't look like it'll be unstable or floppy. The only problem might be the L2 and R2 buttons as they look like they're in a weird position, but I'm probably just seeing them wrong.
I'm going to assume here that GPD will stick to the clamshell design, which I have no issues with, but it'll be great if they can take this design as a basis for their next model.
Though with this design, there should MOGA Hero style OR Tapwave Zodiac mini analog sticks with clicky L3/R3 instead of analog nubs with a separate button. And likely sunken in a bit to help preserve the devices portability. The device looks like it'll be thick enough to support a clicky analog stick.

The stylus is for capacitive screen. is something similar to this:
(http://des.gearbest.com/uploads/2015/201510/heditor/201510151716055337.jpg)

is an active pen, with two function buttons (left and right buttons, as example)
Note that the pen of the image is for screen with pressure levels. I suggest a simple pen for capacitive screens, and with few function buttons.

L2 and R2, they are in a position that are more easy to use than current horizontal layout
Take note that this is a design concept. Maybe sizes are not right on my model, but the main idea is locate these butons under the current L1 and R1 for a better and comfortable usage.

The design keep the current analog stick from GPD-XD. These analog sticks don?t have buttons for assignment L3 and R3, and for this reason i replicated this schemma.
Most probably there is no similar analog sticks on the market, and for this reason they're using this alternative, an analog stick and a separated button.

i was thinking that maybe L3 and R3 may be under the device. May be another idea but for now i let them on their location.

@vcoleiro1

well, there are lots of preferences. Some users prefer 3DS form factor, others prefer PSVita form factor, other prefers XPeria form factor, there are lots of alternatives.

1- About the portability, i don?t think this. I used for many years my PSP and PSVita, and i never found them are non portable. If the device keeps similar sizes than PSVita, then you get many accesories for this too.

2- I don?t understand about this point. if you refer to 3x2 button layout, this is only a suggested layout. Main buttons will be ABXY, and they are inline with the DPAD. C and Z buttons are extras for games that use them, such fightin games based on street fighter layout.
they are not in vertical, they are in "diagonal" doing an "arc". i prefer to put inline all the 6 buttons, but they take so much space for a comfortable usage, and they get so near to borders of the button area, then my sulution was modify this classic layout for another that keep the main idea of 3x2, and get practical to be located on the device and comfortable for usage.

3- People with small hands can reach the keyboard without problem in similar way that reach the current XD preliminary design from GPD. My son have small hands and most probably will not reach center keys on GPD, if they try to use their thumbs and their hadns are on the side of the device.
But if he take the device with their hands on bottom of the device, then most probably he can reach those keys within their thumbs.

Take note that this is the same problem i mentioned on the preliminary design from gpd. a Pandora layout for gamepad controls locate the analog sticks on the center, and this is a location that may be a problem for many users with small hands. and more if you check the preliminary design and realize that gamepad controls must be displace a little bit more to the center, because are so near to the border.

I know about the devices you show. They are concepts but without some things that they missing
- obviously there are not a full layout of controls. If they add analog sticks, full buttons including L3 and R3, etc, the device must be bigger for getting enough room for all these extra components.
- Buttons/DPAd are so near to the screen, and this is a problem. there may be a lot of accidental touches on the screen, and this generate unexpected behaviors depending on the program/game you're using/playing.

But yes, we are talking on something similar to these devices.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 07, 2016, 09:30:03 am
What I was saying in regards to the second point is that the dpad and the buttons are in the low positions.  As opposed to the sticks in the high positions.  Anything in the low positions are thumb cramping nightmares because it forces you to crane your thumbs down.  The controls int he high position are where your thumbs ergonomically normally go to when you hold a clamshell. 

Im a big fan of the Pandora controls because they put all the controls in the most ergonomical easily reached positions(small or large hands) .  ie all up high. The indented controls in GPDs last render are IMO , in great positions for small or large hands. They are nowhere near the centre, as you can see by the large space still remaining inbetween those controls. I'm really excited for the last render GPD showed, it needs some small tweeks like simplifying the keyboard a bit and having some spacing between keys, but really, it's looking good    . It will as the Pandora does, allow you to access all keys from a normal grip , it does not need a seperate grip to access the keys.   What will require a seperate grip to access the keys is a slider, it will force you to hold the bottom edge to use the keyboard which will be a nightmare as the whole weight of the thing will be trying to tip(pivoting from the edge your holding it on). Having to hold it from tipping with your thumbs while trying to type with them , is obviously not viable.

There are four places on a clamshell controls can roughly be.  High near the edge, high indented, low near the edge and low indented.   The most ergonomical positions IMO are this order

1)  High indented (best)
2)  High near the edge
3)  Low indented
4)  Low near the edge. (worst)


And I don't think you can really call the Vita pocketable, unless you have custom massive pockets.  Remember that the slider design would be 2 inches longer than the Vita.

Even with a custom pocket for a vita, it's not exactly pocketable.
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/PS+Vita/feature.asp?c=36918

(http://images.pocketgamer.co.uk/FCKEditorFiles//PS_Vita_Questions5.JPG)



Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 09:42:56 am
What I was saying in regards to the second point is that the dpad and the buttons are in the low positions.  As opposed to the sticks in the high positions.  Anything in the low positions especially near the edge are thumb cramping nightmares because it forces you to crane your thumbs down.  The controls int he high position are where your thumbs ergonomically normally go to when you hold a clamshell. 

Im a big fan of the Pandora controls because they put the controls in the most ergonomical positions.  ie up high.

There are four places on a clamshell controls can roughly be.  High near the edge, high indented, low near the edge and low indented.   The most ergonomical positions IMO are this order

1)  High indented (best)
2)  High near the edge
3)  Low indented
4)  Low near the edge. (worst)

ok, now i get your point.

forgivering the pandora layout, that i mentioned i don?t like because is not ergonomical (IMO), using a PSVita layout you have two layouts:
put analogs up and dpad/buttons down
put dpad/buttons up and analogs down.

after testing many devices, and consider that this device most probably will be focussed on steam games that use analog buttons more than DPAD as manin controller, my preference is to locate the analogs up, because are more ergonomical and you get mor firmly grabbed the device.

and as fighting gamer, i really don?t like the location of the DPAD on PSVita. is weird. analog stick disturb to you, and your fingers really are in diagonal position, that is weird for trying to do moves unless you get usual with this control.

this is the reason why i prefer this layout for the design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on January 07, 2016, 11:01:18 am
Oh...my...glob!

Finally, a chance that we will have a full QWERTY-keyboard gaming device (Pandora with its terrible built quality and outrageous price notwithstanding). This is the best bloody idea I've ever heard, don't even care whether it's gonna be android or windows or whatever. Make it happen, make the built quality acceptable and I'll be all over it! And I think I'm not the only one.
At last, I'll play all those old-skool RPGs and adventure games. What about Amiga emulation! C64! Speccy...
I'm so excited I could piss my pants.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on January 07, 2016, 11:10:19 am
@vcoleiro1 I'd probably sit on it

Besides the clam shell is better cause it protects the screen the slider just seems kinda silly to me.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 12:04:45 pm
(http://images.pocketgamer.co.uk/FCKEditorFiles//PS_Vita_Questions5.JPG)

OMG!!!! I never used my portable devices like this! is dangerous and uncomfortable, no matter which device is.

:S

I always use a belt carry for any device. Is better solution, even for phones (and big phones too)

My phone (Much G2. Well this image is for W1)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kxLK62p1lrk/VRAm8PtfFcI/AAAAAAAAT-M/HzAeOea4Vms/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-C8GatXGBRxk/VRAm9MtSgUI/AAAAAAAAT-U/IFPeYFNNUaQ/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

PSVita
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sgbl6EcYP1I/Vo5S2zqNCaI/AAAAAAAAWvA/OTStB3usGqM/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-M1DJLZ6rFk0/Vo5S2RUEefI/AAAAAAAAWu8/Hy-IjivhTAg/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

GPD-XD
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Rz-GRWAJAl4/Vo5S1nS8KnI/AAAAAAAAWu0/BgsPM0Wm0G0/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7A0CfNsHdN4/Vo5S0zeVnRI/AAAAAAAAWuo/xoOlxEN5UzY/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

and take note that GPD-XD is a big device for carry on a pocket. and most probably new device will be biggest, most probably for adding a good cooling system, etc.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 12:55:14 pm
Updated version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o90S3hIjXrk

Changes:
- L3 and R3 now are on bottom (back) of the device. This way is easy to press L3/R3 button and move analog stick at the same time, that with previous layout (current GPD-XD) is impossible to do.
- Added battery slot, for replaceable battery pack.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 07, 2016, 03:32:37 pm
Decided to make a real account to post some ideas. :)

Concepts are in practical observance of the latest GPD renders.     

(http://i.imgur.com/0C11HgE.png)

Advantages of v1:
1. Modifiers surround the alphabet and punctuation keys.
2. Select and Start are very easy to reach.

Concerns of v1:
1. Escape is adjacent to number 1 and Tab, two routinely pressed keys.
2. `~ and \| symbols are not in their usual locations(this was intentional in order to decrease the number of keys per row from fifteen to fourteen max).

(http://i.imgur.com/mAkhTzT.png) 

Advantages of v2:
1. All symbols are in their normal places.
2. Hardware functions are all at the top like on a laptop.
3. Escape isn't near the number 1 or Tab and thus shouldn't be accidentally pressed.

Concerns of v2:
1. Delete is to the right of the Spacebar. In Windows though I think, Fn with Backspace also defaults to Delete anyways so it may not be an issue to acclimate to.
2. Escape is somewhat away from the rest of the keyboard. This is how it's placed on the Pandora successor, the Pyra, which was thought overwhelmingly quite acceptable. Personally, I prefer Escape up top and not so easy to press as it is next to the number 1 and the Tab key. Yet, looking at my XD, if Escape was up there, my thumb would have no issue in reaching it.

 Hopefully GPD will find these suggestions beneficial.   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 07, 2016, 04:59:06 pm
Deen0x, a stylus like that and the screen digitizer technology needed for it to function without a battery inside said stylus (your stylus looks too small to hold a battery anyway) would be extremely expensive and difficult for GPD to implement. This type of tech would jack the price by $100-200 by itself (even if they're were to source the tech from Chinese companies like Bosto).
Also, the size of your stylus is much too thin and small to contain the necessary tech to make it work; even Samsung's S-Pen isn't that small.
Finally, having the function buttons on the back would make it inconvenient for artists to use.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 05:08:15 pm
well, it's a concept.

maybe then can be a normal capacitive stylus.

i will look for pen alternatives for introduce something that really works (but my main intention is something with button functions, not simply a pen, but without pressure technology, only a pointer with mouse buttons that will be great for use within windows)

and the stylus is something i found on the 3Dwarehouse. i did not design it really. simply use something that already exist.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 07, 2016, 06:38:19 pm
Well, afaik the only pen tech available that allows for buttons on the stylus and a floating mouse cursor is the type I mentioned as being too expensive.
There ARE battery powered, bluetooth connected pens like what Wacom makes for iPads and Apple's own Pencil, but that tech is also really expensive.
GPD could see if they could find a version with low pressure sensitivity and resolution for a cheaper price like the ones used in those really old pen tablet PCs that were a tablet and laptop in one. It'll still be an increase in total cost for the device over using a simple capacitive screen or resistive screen though. They'll also have to do the research in order to get it working correctly in Windows.
A capacitive stylus isn't a good idea as a slot in stylus as they can get gotten anywhere and aren't much better than using a finger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 08:03:13 pm
you right.

I simply let this as an idea, a conceptual design. For me, if there is any active stylus with mouse buttons, will be awesome for usage on the device, but if they consider that is not feasable, no problem.

(but really really i will love an active stylus on the device) XD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: illuminerdi on January 07, 2016, 08:38:35 pm
None of the original 3 look very good to me, to be honest.  The controls for all 3 look like they're far too close to the edges for comfort with my medium/long American fingers. 

I'm reminded a lot of the JXD S7300C which was AWFUL; the shoulder buttons were so far away from the d-pad that trying to use both together was impossible, so SNES games were miserable, and those are my favorite ones.  I mostly use these consoles for emulation, so I *STRONGLY* prefer the ability to use Dpad + LR together comfortably, rather than Analog + LR, but even then it's limited.

I feel like trying to cram a keyboard into the GPD XD's layout is a very difficult task.  The Pyra seems like it has the right idea by basically putting the DPAD and the Analog nubs close together, but even then I'm not sure how comfortable it will be overall.

I think Deenox's render of a GPD XD with a SLIDE OUT keyboard from underneath is FANTASTIC and is EXACTLY what you guys should try to do if you're serious about taking this idea further.  I don't mind a thicker unit to accommodate the slide out keyboard, if it prevents the game controls from becoming cramped and uncomfortable.

If I absolutely had to pick one of the original three concepts I would pick #2, but I'm not sure I'd buy that device if it was real unless a lot of people here said they owned one and that it felt great in their hands.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 07, 2016, 08:52:03 pm
An active pen would definitely be really cool to have. If only they weren't so expensive >_<
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 09:36:08 pm
is only an idea... but yes, it would be awesome on a device like this.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 07, 2016, 10:03:08 pm
New Design Concept

GPD-G59v2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6IrvuvbBYc

This is another design concept based on GPD-58 (PSVita Style)
This time there are some new elements:
- Screen slider, for discover a full layout keyboard.
- L2 and R2 in vertical Layout.
- 3x2 button layout in Arc layout, for easy acces within thumb. This layout i specific for fighting games based on Street Fighter button layout. For this reason buttons Z and C are different to ABXY, they are concave for easy recognition with thumb.
- Viertical stand leg
- Stylus pen, for better/more precise interaction.
- Leds for main actions/states.
- Included two USB 3.0 ports (or almost, one 3.0 and one 2.0) for direct connection of devices.
- Biggest DPAD than GPD-XD
- Button Bar with common buttons for gamepad, windows and android.

personally, i really prefer this form factor for portable gaming console than NDS style. I like this concept, because keep the gamead layout comfortable, and bring a full layout keyboard with a good size (is not a micro-mini keyboard) for people that want this.

Zalu2!

(http://i.imgur.com/eBE21mm.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 07, 2016, 10:30:41 pm
...

XD

i updated the original concept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmcntTBrm5E

changes:
- L3 and R3 now are back on the device, for easy use of them and sticks at the same time (current layout don?t allow to press L3/R3 and move stick at the same time)
- Removable battery

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wCB2xMYiAwU/Vo7orBxW5mI/AAAAAAAAWwM/wB3g0g8V7E4/s800-Ic42/GPD-G59_V2.3.1_Closed_1.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H44s3K-66qE/Vo7orFVcdvI/AAAAAAAAWwQ/mgEOpEAEKwY/s800-Ic42/GPD-G59_V2.3.1_Open_1.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 07, 2016, 10:40:16 pm
Decided to make a real account to post some ideas. :)

Concepts are in practical observance of the latest GPD renders.     

(http://i.imgur.com/0C11HgE.png)

Advantages of v1:
1. Modifiers surround the alphabet and punctuation keys.
2. Select and Start are very easy to reach.

Concerns of v1:
1. Escape is adjacent to number 1 and Tab, two routinely pressed keys.
2. `~ and \| symbols are not in their usual locations(this was intentional in order to decrease the number of keys per row from fifteen to fourteen max).

(http://i.imgur.com/mAkhTzT.png) 

Advantages of v2:
1. All symbols are in their normal places.
2. Hardware functions are all at the top like on a laptop.
3. Escape isn't near the number 1 or Tab and thus shouldn't be accidentally pressed.

Concerns of v2:
1. Delete is to the right of the Spacebar. In Windows though I think, Fn with Backspace also defaults to Delete anyways so it may not be an issue to acclimate to.
2. Escape is somewhat away from the rest of the keyboard. This is how it's placed on the Pandora successor, the Pyra, which was thought overwhelmingly quite acceptable. Personally, I prefer Escape up top and not so easy to press as it is next to the number 1 and the Tab key. Yet, looking at my XD, if Escape was up there, my thumb would have no issue in reaching it.

 Hopefully GPD will find these suggestions beneficial.   

Hmm, interesting layout.   Will have to go over it more later

On a different note, I wonder if GPD have found clickable sticks they are planning to use?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on January 07, 2016, 11:45:45 pm
This last desing looks pretty nice. I like it. It looks more interesting than the one based on GPD XD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fetarius on January 08, 2016, 05:23:42 am
Needs the option of Windows or Remix OS, maybe dual boot.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 08, 2016, 06:36:59 am
DeenoX, I think I just lost it when I saw that design of yours.  MAN that's perfect!  I would order without thinking if that was the final.  The hidden slider keyboard is a perfect form factor without breaking control comfort.  Man, these designs of yours are really solid!

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: DexterLab on January 08, 2016, 07:26:10 am
Guyz it is a old design. If we could add Deenox L1,R1 , L2R, L3 R3 concepts then it would be very nice.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on January 08, 2016, 08:52:11 am
The Deenox's design is nice if a little bit arcane. I don't think they would consider adding a sliding component, it's too complicated and costly.

Would be awesome, though.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 08, 2016, 09:56:24 am
The Deenox's design is nice if a little bit arcane. I don't think they would consider adding a sliding component, it's too complicated and costly.

Would be awesome, though.

if you check the original designs suggested by GPD, there are slider components included on it, then this is something feasable if GPD suggested it.  ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on January 08, 2016, 10:07:55 am
The Deenox's design is nice if a little bit arcane. I don't think they would consider adding a sliding component, it's too complicated and costly.

Would be awesome, though.

if you check the original designs suggested by GPD, there are slider components included on it, then this is something feasable if GPD suggested it.  ^_^

Oh... so the 3rd original design is a slider, I suppose?

Interesting, indeed. Although sliders can be kinda faulty... All in all, it depends on whether GPD can actually build it and build it good. We'll see.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 08, 2016, 12:25:06 pm
Hmm, interesting layout.   Will have to go over it more later

On a different note, I wonder if GPD have found clickable sticks they are planning to use?

Thank you Victor.

Though it is not confirmed, it seems the new joysticks do have center click. I'd surmise then L3 would be left mouse button and R3 would be right mouse button as default while joystick2 was switched to mouse cursor mode.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 08, 2016, 12:34:56 pm
ok, mouse button is for changing the behavior of the controls?

is the same as the keyboard button i added on my designs, but my proposal have more functionality.

based on some joysticks i used time ago, they come with a button for changing from gamepad to keyboard/mouse.
the same driver come with an utility for edit the keyboard assignments, then you can change the behavior of the gamepad in keyboard mode, configuring your own keys.

is exactly the same functionality as using JoyToKey (http://joytokey.net/en/), that allow to use any gamepad and "translate" to keyboard or mouse, but with more funcions.

My original idea is something like this when pressing the "keyboard" button. Change the gamepad to keyboard behavior, and there are some app that you can open for configuring this (or simply keep pressing the keyboard, for opening the keyboard configurator)

Maybe you can think on some similar solution, not a static config for the controls on the device, instead of this, use some software solution similar to JoyTioKey for adding configuration feature to your design.

and add a Keyboard Switch, for enable/disable keyboard, and avoid accidental key pressings.   ;)


(yes, i don?t like your design because is a pandora design, but this don?t mean i can?t give you some suggestions) :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 08, 2016, 01:10:46 pm
Denoox I like the last one you got it.
Really people's the best design so far, I used to owned the shield portable and after a period of time my big hands get tired,for clamshell design the ergonomic point of view is the worst even with the gamepad look design.
About the PS vita design like but still not good for my big hands,i used to owned the jxd s7800b and same thing,i am not a big hard gamer, but still,is like with are looking on the wrong way,about portability, not playability,I know that's everybody's preferences.
Again Denoox can make a design with the two sides hands control to be like telescopic steering for comfortably or something like the ipega9023, but attached to main hardware device. And about the display can be done like the yoga tablet convertible to protect the screen and the rounded bar a cylinder low power fan.
Good luck people's
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 08, 2016, 01:56:02 pm
in fact, i was working on something "telescopic" design for expand gamepad controls, not for big hands (that now i think is a good reason), but is for giving more space between the screen and the thumbs, and avoid accidentally touching the screen that can generate unexpected behaviors.

(i know GPD will not consider these kind of features, but for completing my desings, i will create one like this)

and well, is a concept. i thinked on some accessorie for adding an external cooling fan, as example, but GPD is not big fan on creating accessories, and an integrated fan become the device noisy and battery drainer. i prefer passive cooling system.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 08, 2016, 02:28:49 pm
If the GPD XD came with a hard cover, the non-clamshell design would be good. As it is right now, I prefer the protection of the clamshell design.

I just want to say, by no means I think it's bad. It's just that the GPD XD2 is a mid end device, and the only devices I can accept having no protection are low end devices. If it were significantly cheaper (I can't imagine it costing less than $170, but I'll be gladly surprised if it is), this design would be the bomb.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 08, 2016, 03:39:03 pm
well, i don?t know about prices of component such Gorilla Glass protection, but my design is focussed to be suitable to place on PSVita covers, unless the final product get biggest size than PSVita, then we must find something for protect the device (my case, i still use my belt case)

I was thinking on something like a cover that you can "clip" over the device for protect it. for now, i?m doing another things, but i will think about this idea when i can.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 08, 2016, 05:08:23 pm
No exactly a rounded fan more like a mechanical little shape cylinder blower for air flow, and to protect the screen like flip convertible screen.
I don't think that this types of feature is a big deal is the going for cheap plastic design,those all parts they already exists,or maybe is pretty cheap to designed.
I like feature
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 09, 2016, 12:33:34 am
I like that last design deen0x, sliders seem to be harder engineer correctly and don't provide as much protection, a clamshell of the same would not only be easier but provide more protection. Might be something to think about.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 09, 2016, 03:14:45 am
Denoox where are the speaker and mic in the las design and can be the device like tablet regular shape design suggestion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 09, 2016, 09:26:38 am
Denoox where are the speaker and mic in the las design and can be the device like tablet regular shape design suggestion.

are in bottom face, but this it is an element (and the mic hole) that the manufacturer will found where can locate, based on the internal design.

tablet regular shape design? what do you mean? a rectangle device?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 09, 2016, 02:42:38 pm
Denoox where are the speaker and mic in the las design and can be the device like tablet regular shape design suggestion.

are in bottom face, but this it is an element (and the mic hole) that the manufacturer will found where can locate, based on the internal design.

tablet regular shape design? what do you mean? a rectangle device?

Yes

So many post a the designing team from GPD doesn't said nothing
DeenOX kickstart your design, windows free, skylake SOC,4g, ssd, MHL or thunderbolt for feature connect a high end graphic card, USB type C, sd card .dual boot or third boot, remix 2.0 they said can be done over intel and AMD free download janaury 12.At least 8 inches screen and telescopic game control design detachable

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 10, 2016, 12:21:39 pm
I'd like to add to the discussion that I would like GPD to use a 720p display if possible.

Something as high quality and colorful as what the XD has. Windows 10 has very good scaling which will help with small fonts, but battery life will be less with a larger resolution on a 5.5".

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 18, 2016, 06:16:43 am
some detail specs about GPD-Win.
I/O port: 1?USB Type-C,1?USB(A) 3.0 ,HDMI D  Type (Micro HDMI) ,3.5mm Headset jack, TF card Maximum up to 128GB
Network: WIFI and bluetooth are both support.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 18, 2016, 02:48:11 pm
I love the speculation and design wishlist aspect of this thread, and Deenox's designs are droolworthy, but are there any official details and maybe an updated render or picture of what this thing is going to look like and have?  At this point, I want to see what GPD is working on...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 18, 2016, 02:53:53 pm
Denoox where are the speaker and mic in the las design and can be the device like tablet regular shape design suggestion.

are in bottom face, but this it is an element (and the mic hole) that the manufacturer will found where can locate, based on the internal design.

tablet regular shape design? what do you mean? a rectangle device?

Yes

So many post a the designing team from GPD doesn't said nothing
DeenOX kickstart your design, windows free, skylake SOC,4g, ssd, MHL or thunderbolt for feature connect a high end graphic card, USB type C, sd card .dual boot or third boot, remix 2.0 they said can be done over intel and AMD free download janaury 12.At least 8 inches screen and telescopic game control design detachable

We kind of already have that device today.  Its called the Lynx Vision 8 gaming tab. :)   If you're talking about removing the controller (aka not integrated) and you're looking for an 8"ish device running windows, you're not completely out of luck today.   There are dozens of windows 7-8" tabs and about 5 different telescoping case controllers that you can mix and match alacarte to make a sub 200$ gaming tab setup.     The real treasure is in the 5-6" pocketable clamshell or psp sized portable device, that doesn't exist in any form right now.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 18, 2016, 03:01:17 pm
the telescopic control that mention is not a "telescopic removable control"

he refers to a telescopic mechanism to expand the controller and allow more space between screen and controls

take as example the iPega PG-9055

(http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_416339_1.jpg)

this gaming controller have two "screws" that allow to expand the grips, for get more comfortable to the user.

think on something similar on the device that allow to expand their structure, for allow to play in comfortable way.

i did some designs based on this, but i discard because are not "practical". i have a mid-state design about this concept now, but i get a little bit busy and did not finished yet, but the main idea is the same, expanding controls (a little bit) for getting better confort on playing, most for people with big hands.

^_^

(of course, i know is a design that GPD will not consider really, but i like to create designs) ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 18, 2016, 03:45:52 pm
I love the speculation and design wishlist aspect of this thread, and Deenox's designs are droolworthy, but are there any official details and maybe an updated render or picture of what this thing is going to look like and have?  At this point, I want to see what GPD is working on...

Read Kendyzhu777's posts.  Kendy is with GPD.  He's been posting info on the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on January 18, 2016, 09:20:28 pm
Damn these devices seem to have  some pent up demand. I remember when I used to be on the openpandora forums proposing these ideas. Sure not everything was feasible nor was I the most tactful but I would get shut down so hard. Wrong crowd is guess.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 18, 2016, 09:26:06 pm
Damn these devices seem to have  some pent up demand. I remember when I used to be on the openpandora forums proposing these ideas. Sure not everything was feasible nor was I the most tactful but I would get shut down so hard. Wrong crowd is guess.

I think timing has a lot to do with it. Stuff like emulation station and steam big picture mode makes a device like this much more usable from a ui point of view than even a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 18, 2016, 09:40:24 pm
Damn these devices seem to have  some pent up demand. I remember when I used to be on the openpandora forums proposing these ideas. Sure not everything was feasible nor was I the most tactful but I would get shut down so hard. Wrong crowd is guess.

I think timing has a lot to do with it. Stuff like emulation station and steam big picture mode makes a device like this much more usable from a ui point of view than even a couple of years ago.

OpenPandora was just a few people right? Stuff like this would make a difference to them but GPD has many more resources  at their disposal.
The Open Pandora ended up being super expensive as a result. I really wanted one but between the initial scarcity and the cost it just wasn't worth it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 19, 2016, 01:09:44 am
the telescopic control that mention is not a "telescopic removable control"

he refers to a telescopic mechanism to expand the controller and allow more space between screen and controls

take as example the iPega PG-9055

(http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_416339_1.jpg)

this gaming controller have two "screws" that allow to expand the grips, for get more comfortable to the user.

think on something similar on the device that allow to expand their structure, for allow to play in comfortable way.

i did some designs based on this, but i discard because are not "practical". i have a mid-state design about this concept now, but i get a little bit busy and did not finished yet, but the main idea is the same, expanding controls (a little bit) for getting better confort on playing, most for people with big hands.

^_^

(of course, i know is a design that GPD will not consider really, but i like to create designs) ;)

Actually, he specifically says telescopic detatchable, which is why i suggested his dreams had already been realized.  Perhaps i misinterpreted his comment?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 19, 2016, 01:11:17 am
I love the speculation and design wishlist aspect of this thread, and Deenox's designs are droolworthy, but are there any official details and maybe an updated render or picture of what this thing is going to look like and have?  At this point, I want to see what GPD is working on...

Read Kendyzhu777's posts.  Kendy is with GPD.  He's been posting info on the device.

All i saw was his post about ports.  I want to know about the ram, chipset, gpu, and storage type at this point in development.  I dont know how far along they are, but if they're heading in a direction that will turn this into the windows equivalent of the XD, I need to start looking at other products that are closer to meeting my performance needs and are available today. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 19, 2016, 01:12:30 am
ups!, you're right. i missed the "detachable" word... XDDDD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 19, 2016, 02:24:01 am
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 19, 2016, 02:29:41 am
any possible chance you can bump the screen up to 6"?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on January 19, 2016, 11:59:36 am
Awesome!

I like the 720p screen it?s cheaper and more easy on the (weak obviously) GPU

"fast" cherrytrail, nice
bluetooth, 4 GB ram, gorilla glass, very nice

One thing tough: In addition to the horrific game performance over longer time due to trothling, there is one other thing I find crucial:

I don?t care if you have to violate some trademarks or something (the XD also comes with "Xbox360" and "ps3" joystick drivers) but make sure windows thinls the controller is an xbox360 controller so all steam games work with it. If it is not recognized 100% as an xbox360 controller, I will *not* buy the device, simply as that.

And please *also* make it possible (for older games which do not support xbox360 controller but do have controller support) to use xinput.

Thank you! :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on January 19, 2016, 12:12:39 pm
Awesome!

I like the 720p screen it?s cheaper and more easy on the (weak obviously) GPU

"fast" cherrytrail, nice
bluetooth, 4 GB ram, gorilla glass, very nice

One thing tough: In addition to the horrific game performance over longer time due to trothling, there is one other thing I find crucial:

I don?t care if you have to violate some trademarks or something (the XD also comes with "Xbox360" and "ps3" joystick drivers) but make sure windows thinls the controller is an xbox360 controller so all steam games work with it. If it is not recognized 100% as an xbox360 controller, I will *not* buy the device, simply as that.

And please *also* make it possible (for older games which do not support xbox360 controller but do have controller support) to use xinput.

Thank you! :D
Don't gloss over how important that is. If winbros don't see it as a 360 pad it is as good as useless.
Aside is the atom the only choice?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 19, 2016, 12:32:14 pm

One thing tough: In addition to the horrific game performance over longer time due to trothling, there is one other thing I find crucial:

I don?t care if you have to violate some trademarks or something (the XD also comes with "Xbox360" and "ps3" joystick drivers) but make sure windows thinls the controller is an xbox360 controller so all steam games work with it. If it is not recognized 100% as an xbox360 controller, I will *not* buy the device, simply as that.

Same x-input is absolutely crucial.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 19, 2016, 01:21:21 pm
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.

Kendyzhu777, everything is perfect except for the storage capacity which I'd prefer was boosted to 128GB.

SD cards and usb flash drives should be optional not indispensable, but all else GPD has chosen is optimum. Great. :) 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 19, 2016, 01:55:27 pm
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.

Kendyzhu777, everything is perfect except for the storage capacity which I'd prefer was boosted to 128GB.

SD cards and usb flash drives should be optional not indispensable, but all else GPD has chosen is optimum. Great. :)

128GB means a very expensive device.

most probably GPD will release some "flavors" of the device, may be 32/64/128 GB

take note that currently, the GPD-XD (andoird) differences are:
32GB : ~130?
64GB : ~190?

about 60? only for 32GB extra. I think 32GB will be ok for most people. Yes, is not so much space, but for windows single (even, with a little android partition) is enough.
you must install a microSD (currently, you can buy 128GB for about 40? or less)

again: take in mind, these are prices for android device... most probably windows device will be more expensive...

if someone need more space (internal memory is fastest, less loading times, etc) then you can buy another device with more space.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on January 19, 2016, 02:40:10 pm
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.

Kendyzhu777, everything is perfect except for the storage capacity which I'd prefer was boosted to 128GB.

SD cards and usb flash drives should be optional not indispensable, but all else GPD has chosen is optimum. Great. :)

128GB means a very expensive device.

most probably GPD will release some "flavors" of the device, may be 32/64/128 GB

take note that currently, the GPD-XD (andoird) differences are:
32GB : ~130?
64GB : ~190?

about 60? only for 32GB extra. I think 32GB will be ok for most people. Yes, is not so much space, but for windows single (even, with a little android partition) is enough.
you must install a microSD (currently, you can buy 128GB for about 40? or less)

again: take in mind, these are prices for android device... most probably windows device will be more expensive...

if someone need more space (internal memory is fastest, less loading times, etc) then you can buy another device with more space.

And also, the very newest games aren?t going to run good, the ones that will run decently to very good are the ones that are 3 to 8 years old or older (eg from gog) and those take up a lot less space so you can still fit quite a few in 64 GB ^^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 19, 2016, 06:01:41 pm
True 64GB is adequate enough and less costly but if it isn't that much more expensive by their internal costs to upswing the standard model to 128GB then hopefully GPD can do it(or add a second micro SD slot for further expansion).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 19, 2016, 08:09:11 pm
this device goal is to play games that was multis on past console generation.
titles from X360/PS3 library will be the top. Current games may be playable, but depends on the game itself, their optimization, etc, etc.

examples: GTA5 can be played on cherrytrail, yes, but with (very) low framerate. this is the top that what we can expect.

others such Skyrim or previous titles are playable (in low-graphics settings)

i think is a mistake thinking on running lastest games on this kind of device. Is not a gaming hardware (meaning in the sense of pc gaming hardware). is a multipourpose PC that we can use for playing many windows games, and it is OSOM in my opinion.

(but i still hope GPD release a dual-os option)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on January 19, 2016, 08:26:41 pm
this device goal is to play games that was multis on past console generation.
titles from X360/PS3 library will be the top. Current games may be playable, but depends on the game itself, their optimization, etc, etc.

examples: GTA5 can be played on cherrytrail, yes, but with (very) low framerate. this is the top that what we can expect.

others such Skyrim or previous titles are playable (in low-graphics settings)

i think is a mistake thinking on running lastest games on this kind of device. Is not a gaming hardware (meaning in the sense of pc gaming hardware). is a multipourpose PC that we can use for playing many windows games, and it is OSOM in my opinion.

(but i still hope GPD release a dual-os option)

Can it run skyrim at a constant 30fps everything lowest 720p? It looked playable sure, but I did see framedrops down to 15 fps-ish in fights on youtube, is that what we can expect, or just that device?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 19, 2016, 08:31:31 pm
well, i did not tested with a FPS counter, but for me is playable (understanding on where i?m playing, on a baytrail with 2GB RAM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxGUnrl4z8g

Note: Black sides are from my capture card, because i resized the screen. on the tablet i get fullscreen.
note2: my gamplay sucks, i know (is my first time playing this game)  XD

i figure this game will run better on cherrytrail...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 19, 2016, 09:05:44 pm
i think is a mistake thinking on running lastest games on this kind of device. Is not a gaming hardware (meaning in the sense of pc gaming hardware). is a multipourpose PC that we can use for playing many windows games, and it is OSOM in my opinion.
I agree it is not for playing the latest games at all as the specs are rightfully too weak. It's attraction is it is a full windows PC with game controls that folds in a pocket. To date, there has been nothing exactly(recently) like it since everything outside of ARM have been atom tablets. Surprised it has taken this long to make one but regrettably the industry is plagued by imitation rather than inventiveness. 

The gaming aspect isn't the big selling point for me as I play video games only occasionally though it offers incentive. Being able to carry my home laptop wherever I go unencumbered is what interests me about the GPD-Win.   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 19, 2016, 09:19:44 pm
The gaming aspect isn't the big selling point for me as I play video games only occasionally though it offers incentive. Being able to carry my home laptop wherever I go unencumbered is what interests me about the GPD-Win.
Likewise - as a college student, I will probably use it more for watching lectures on the go, PDA (remember those terrible little things?), and as a light tool for homework.
HOWEVER, I'm still a gamer, and having what's basically a laptop on me at all times will open up new opportunities for me to play whenever I have the time - whether it be a dull lecture or just some time on the train back home from uni. If it satisfies both needs, I'll be far more than just content.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 19, 2016, 09:57:48 pm
Saber , as others have said, GPD are more than likely to release a range of storage options as they did with the GPD XD. 

It's best to have a base model with the lowest storage possible to keep the cost down for the budget minded people and for marketing/sales purposes.  Other higher storage options would then cater for the needs of others.

I suspect from what they have said, that they will start with a base model of 64GB . Probably have another model with 128GB.   I'm actually surprised they don't start with a cheaper 32GB model, so that you have a 32GB, 64GB and 128GB models.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 20, 2016, 12:41:09 pm
Saber , as others have said, GPD are more than likely to release a range of storage options as they did with the GPD XD.
Victor, of course they will as it is the trend of companies(looking at Apple) to do so, but I don't care much for this as it entices the consumer into believing buying a low-end budget model has saved them money, but the reality is they will find themselves having to purchase storage(add $) anyways through external cards and drives.

Every user eventually needs more space, and although 128GB will fill up fast too, it won't as quickly as 32GB will. 64GB is okay as the standard GPD-Win and as you said they will probably offer an upsell unit to 128GB with a premium color option, but I wish the final tally for the consumer wasn't so hazy.   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 20, 2016, 10:38:18 pm
Getting back to price, what is the most people will pay for the GPD WIN?

$150
$200
$250
$300
$400
$400+


I ask because I'm concerned about what this will end up costing.   I'd like to get a feel of what people will pay as a maximum
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on January 20, 2016, 10:39:20 pm
Getting back to price, what is the most people will pay for the GPD WIN?

$150
$200
$250
$300


I ask because I'm concerned about what this will end up costing.   I'd like to get a feel of what people will pay as a maximum
I'll pay pretty much anything at this point. I've been waiting for something like this for a long time now. :D but preferably like ?300 because I'd hope that would increase the build quality :)
Imo anything below $250 is unrealistic but we'll see
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 20, 2016, 10:53:07 pm
well, i get my calcs and i think a 32GB version may cost 200~210? (considering that storage memory of GPD products are about 16GB=30? aprox)

300usd ~ 275?, then 275? - 60? are about 215? (but i figure GPD can adjust the price for getting a good price device, any price near to 200? will be so interesting for most people that are not usual with this kind of devices)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 20, 2016, 10:56:52 pm
I think I can manage up to $250 as an early adopter. Any more than that and I'll need to see reviews before I make a purchase.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 20, 2016, 10:59:48 pm
Around ?200 I suppose. I wouldn't want to spend too much because mobile chipsets still seem to be getting better quite quickly and since GPD still have QC issues I don't want to spend too much on something that could fall apart quite quickly
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 20, 2016, 11:04:00 pm
I think I can manage up to $250 as an early adopter. Any more than that and I'll need to see reviews before I make a purchase.

well, 250usd ~ 230?... i think will be a very good price, but hard to realize.
if you considert this, then the develop of this new GPD-Win device will cost about 30~40? over the similar android product GPD-XD. I- don?t know. hope the difference will be low, and peopole select their devie based on their preferences of platform (android or windows) and not by the price of the device (buying the cheapest device based on their price instead on the OS)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 20, 2016, 11:13:02 pm
I think I can manage up to $250 as an early adopter. Any more than that and I'll need to see reviews before I make a purchase.



I think they may have to reconsider the storage on the base model, perhaps go with a starter of 32GB to keep the entry level price down. Say 3 options: 1) 32GB 2) 64GB and 3) 128GB


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 20, 2016, 11:26:06 pm
I think they may have to reconsider the storage on the base model, perhaps go with a starter of 32GB to keep the entry level price down. Say 3 options: 1) 32GB 2) 64GB and 3) 128GB

totally agree
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 12:23:32 am
Windows takes almost 23Gb so forget the 32Gb base.
Cherry trail x5 10 inches 4Gb and 32Gb price around over $200, tablet, no GPD Win style design.
So the x5 soc, I think around over $260 it's ok with 4gb and 64 gb.but the real estate right now is the heat cooling system,that is my concern.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 21, 2016, 12:33:46 am
windows 10 take about 15GB (or less) installed. the rest is for pagefile, hibernation, temps, and few base programs installed on C drive.

32GB are enough for an installation of windows. all the rest of the stuff must be installed on microSD card.

Quote
To: How big is Windows 10 on DVD and HDD?
?? x32 (on the DVD ~ 2.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~ 9.0 GB)
?? x64 (on the DVD ~ 3.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~11 GB)

http://www.softwareok.com/?seite=faq-Windows-10&faq=31

then, 32GB are enough for windows installation and operation without issues.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 02:16:44 am
Good to know, so we hope that the GPD team software install the very basic windows 10 OS
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 21, 2016, 02:34:18 am
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.

Kendyzhu777, everything is perfect except for the storage capacity which I'd prefer was boosted to 128GB.

SD cards and usb flash drives should be optional not indispensable, but all else GPD has chosen is optimum. Great. :)

Thanks!!The 8G/128G is in the plan. ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 21, 2016, 02:37:57 am
windows 10 take about 15GB (or less) installed. the rest is for pagefile, hibernation, temps, and few base programs installed on C drive.

32GB are enough for an installation of windows. all the rest of the stuff must be installed on microSD card.

Quote
To: How big is Windows 10 on DVD and HDD?
?? x32 (on the DVD ~ 2.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~ 9.0 GB)
?? x64 (on the DVD ~ 3.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~11 GB)

http://www.softwareok.com/?seite=faq-Windows-10&faq=31

then, 32GB are enough for windows installation and operation without issues.

We will also consider 32gb,but i am not sure...any update,I will let you know!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 03:20:38 am
We finally determine some important specific configuration:
CPU:Intel Atom X5 Z8500 ;Quad-core processor/Quad threading ;64 bit Instruction set ;14 nm Process technology.
Storage: 4GB/64GB
Operating System:Windows 10 Home.
Display:Capacitance screen, multi-touch support;5.5 Inch ;1280?720 resolution;Corning Gorilla Glass 3, In-Cell technology.

Kendyzhu777, everything is perfect except for the storage capacity which I'd prefer was boosted to 128GB.

Carry on fantastic
Remember the new SOC x5 z8550 or x7 available in febraury.
Are you considering thunderbolt USB type c

SD cards and usb flash drives should be optional not indispensable, but all else GPD has chosen is optimum. Great. :)

Thanks!!The 8G/128G is in the plan. ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 03:30:08 am
Hey Kendy what about the design which one
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 21, 2016, 04:37:08 am
If you're planning a version with 8 GB RAM, you may as well see if you can get the Z8750 and sell the entire thing as the high spec version of the GPD Win.
If it's not possible, then it'll be nice if the 8G/128G could cost $300 or less.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 04:52:22 am
If you're planning a version with 8 GB RAM, you may as well see if you can get the Z8750 and sell the entire thing as the high spec version of the GPD Win.
If it's not possible, then it'll be nice if the 8G/128G could cost $300 or less.
Totally agreed. No question. Nada
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 21, 2016, 07:42:14 am
Getting back to price, what is the most people will pay for the GPD WIN?

$150
$200
$250
$300
$400
$400+


I ask because I'm concerned about what this will end up costing.   I'd like to get a feel of what people will pay as a maximum

At $300-$350 I'd definitely buy one (possibly two) if they were planning to offer an Android version, which they're not.
At $200-$350 I'd definitely buy two (possibly four) if they were planning to offer an Android version, which they're not.

For a Windows-only device, I may be tempted to buy one at $150. But I doubt it'll be priced that low.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 21, 2016, 09:04:32 am
again, another excercise.

based on info we can gather, we can deduce:

the 16GB Block of internal memory cost about 30? (calculated based on price difference between 32/64GB versions of GPD-XD)
the 4GB RAM block, based on notebook RAM DDR3 1333, is about 20? (local price)
the device base (4GB RAM without internal storage) is about 155? (take the referenced price of 275?/300usd, that most probably is the 4/64GB, and quit 4*16GB ram, then you get 275 - (4*30) = 155? aprox)

Then:
Base device + 4GB = 175? (for 8GB RAM)
175? + (16*8=128GB internal storage) = 175? + (30? * 8) = 175? + 240? = 415?

for quick speaking, the price is over 400? for 8/128 device (the "Pro" version)
i really want one, but is a very high price and i doubt there are so many potential customers that will buy this.

instead of this, i think a very good alternative is the 8/32 version:
Base device + 4GB =175?
175? + (2*30?) = 175? + 60 = 235?

i think this alternative is, for large, a very very interesting choice for most users.
users can buy a 128GB microSD (currently, you can get one for less than 40?, that means, about 5? for each 16GB block)
summarizing: 235? + 40? = 275? and you get a 8GBram/32GB + 128GB of storage. i found this a very very interesting choice IMHO

of course, all this is my own speculation.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on January 21, 2016, 09:58:24 am
again, another excercise.

based on info we can gather, we can deduce:

the 16GB Block of internal memory cost about 30? (calculated based on price difference between 32/64GB versions of GPD-XD)
the 4GB RAM block, based on notebook RAM DDR3 1333, is about 20? (local price)
the device base (4GB RAM without internal storage) is about 155? (take the referenced price of 275?/300usd, that most probably is the 4/64GB, and quit 4*16GB ram, then you get 275 - (4*30) = 155? aprox)

Then:
Base device + 4GB = 175? (for 8GB RAM)
175? + (16*8=128GB internal storage) = 175? + (30? * 8) = 175? + 240? = 415?

for quick speaking, the price is over 400? for 8/128 device (the "Pro" version)
i really want one, but is a very high price and i doubt there are so many potential customers that will buy this.

instead of this, i think a very good alternative is the 8/32 version:
Base device + 4GB =175?
175? + (2*30?) = 175? + 60 = 235?

i think this alternative is, for large, a very very interesting choice for most users.
users can buy a 128GB microSD (currently, you can get one for less than 40?, that means, about 5? for each 16GB block)
summarizing: 235? + 40? = 275? and you get a 8GBram/32GB + 128GB of storage. i found this a very very interesting choice IMHO

of course, all this is my own speculation.

No no no, those RAM prices and such are what you pay as a consumer! The factory has to make profit, the store you buy it has to make profit... and GPD will buy tens of thousands of modules, get big volume discount.... there is no way in hell those prices would be so high for them!

The battery is the same as the XD, read they prob. still have them lying around, the SOC is <35 dollars, the screen etc. all volume discounted, I figure they will probably be able to make this for AT MOST a 100 euros a piece, probably less. And so I think/hope the price will be about 150 euros for a 32 GB version, maybe 200 euros for a 64 gb version. I also would not pay more then 200 euros BTW...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 21, 2016, 10:25:33 am
Here's the current market prices for eMMc storage:  http://en.chinaflashmarket.com/pricecenter/emmc

   eMMC 16GB TLC V4.5/5.0   $3.80   
   eMMC 32GB TLC V4.5/5.0   $7.80   
   eMMC 64GB TLC V4.5/5.0   $16.00
   eMMC 128GB TLC V4.5/5.0   $30.00   


Of course you then need to add manufacturer, wholesale and retail markups to those
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 21, 2016, 10:39:53 am
There are many other costs, such as designing and manufacturing the case, the small parts such as the keys, and making of alpha and beta products. From a consumer perspective, it's ludicrous to estimate a price point of a break through device - just look at the Oculus Rift for instance.

Currently, I think GPD should just forego cost and just make a stable, durable device. You don't buy a computer to last you only one or two years, unlike the mobile market. If they can get that right, and make something that will last for 3-4 years, not only will we buy it - it will break through to other markets.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 21, 2016, 10:42:07 am
of course, you're right. the prices i used are consumer prices. GPD will get better prices, but when release the device for the market, then consumers will buy at consumer prices.

the device i configured is a consumer price. is not a manufacturer price.

yes, maybe 128GB may cost 30usd to manufacturer, but for final price (consumer price) the cost will increase a lot (x3, x4 times?)

if GPD can offer a better price for final consumer, will be awesome for everybody of course, but we cannot expect that they will sell to us a 128GB device and cost for this storage is 30usd.

hope Pro version is under 300?. for me, is a very good price for 8/128GB device, but i checked on the web and found some few devices that come within 128GB storage (all from chinese storage):
teclast x2 pro over 415? (Core M. 4/128)
onda v116w ~390? (Core M. 4/128)
cube i7 ~670? (Core M. 4/128)
pipo w8 ~436? (Core M. 4/128)

GPD-Win is not a CoreM device, but considering that this device is a new kind of device (gaming console windows based), then 400? range is not away from these prices i think.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 21, 2016, 10:51:55 am
Of course, that's why I said in my last post  "Of course you then need to add manufacturer, wholesale and retail markups to those"

Did you miss that bit?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 21, 2016, 10:58:09 am
Of course, that's why I said in my last post  "Of course you then need to add manufacturer, wholesale and retail markups to those"

Did you miss that bit?

i missed ... XD

sorry!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 12:46:07 pm
GDP Win Pro version: I really hope for this;
Intel cherry trail x7
A good heat sink cooling fan system
USB type-c thunderbolt
Denoox last design
8gb by 128gb
Digital stylus support(optional)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 21, 2016, 01:45:43 pm
GDP Win Pro version: I really hope for this;
Intel cherry trail x7
A good heat sink cooling fan system
USB type-c thunderbolt
Denoox last design
8gb by 128gb
Digital stylus support(optional)

No! The non-clamshell design is just so terrible. No portability.
I won't buy the device if it will have a design like that.

I really like the original design posted in the other windows handheld thread.

I think GPD should stick to their original design from the other thread and just improve that one (maybe make keyboard a little bit smaller), instead of a radical change.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 21, 2016, 01:57:06 pm
well, there are a lot of opinions.

i prefer a PSVita form factor (my last design is based on this), for sure, but for now clamshell (3DSXL) will be the only choice. (for me, is less comfortable than PSVita style)

hope GPD include some features, such removable battery for gain more autonomy...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 21, 2016, 02:05:28 pm
hope GPD include some features, such removable battery for gain more autonomy...

I'd also like a user-removable battery feature for the GPD-Win.

Other thing is if L3 and R3 are separate buttons, or will they be center clicks for the joysticks.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 21, 2016, 05:23:13 pm
hope GPD include some features, such removable battery for gain more autonomy...

I'd also like a user-removable battery feature for the GPD-Win.

Other thing is if L3 and R3 are separate buttons, or will they be center clicks for the joysticks.

Technically they're all user replaceable if you've got a soldering iron.  ;)
But seriously, having to either make their own or use a battery from another device would drive up cost and increase the size. The battery being inside means they can fit everything around, but the connector and the space it goes would limit them.

L3/R3 on the sticks would be nice, but I would think that would mean bigger/costlier analog sticks and they might not work with the clamshell design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 21, 2016, 07:00:24 pm
There have been small sticks with click button like the MOGA Hero, so GPD should probably be able to find one that suits their needs if they keep looking.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: dcxero on January 21, 2016, 07:27:52 pm
For a Windows-only device, I may be tempted to buy one at $150. But I doubt it'll be priced that low.

Just install Android x86. I'll definitely be dual booting mine with an SD card

Speaking of SD cards, can we get two slots?  ;D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 21, 2016, 07:32:06 pm
Probably just wishful thinking about the battery and the joysticks. Regardless, everything GPD seems to be doing with the Win so far appears outstanding. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saturos on January 21, 2016, 07:38:14 pm
the price of a removable battery will be very high suposing these battery have 6000 mah. May be if the battery were removable, the capacity were 4000-4500 for obvious reasons...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 21, 2016, 08:00:39 pm
the price of a removable battery will be very high suposing these battery have 6000 mah. May be if the battery were removable, the capacity were 4000-4500 for obvious reasons...
Case thickness would undoubtedly increase too, and we sort of need the room inside for a quality heatsink.

I'd be happy if the GPD designers crafted the Win so you could remove the bottom panel without disrupting the rest of the machine's components; a strategically placed set of screws to undo when the battery ultimately starts to wear.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 21, 2016, 10:20:53 pm
For sure removable battery a i will pray to god.but the thing that i do really want, about the design, i don care if is a litlle bulky,in back of  the device where the SOC its going to be, face it , outside to get some ventilation with nice heat sink cooling fan system and maybe below the removable battery and for the last thing if Denoox get  or make the design PSP Vita with telescopy game controllers ,you can twistted,and can be sitting or hidding in the back in each side where the SOC fan and removable battery are. i am sorry if idont explain well.
So this is just wishes
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 22, 2016, 02:07:51 am
The battery is a 6000mAh Non-removeable Li-PO battery,It can support 6-8 hours online games!!
and now we plan 2 colors, a black one and a white one.
Due to many players want a Android system,even a dual OS,so we are considering for it now.maybe we will update some firmware and try to realize it...I can't give you a accurate answer,but I think everything is possible. ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 22, 2016, 02:21:22 am
The battery is a 6000mAh Non-removeable Li-PO battery,It can support 6-8 hours online games!!
and now we plan 2 colors, a black one and a white one.
Due to many players want a Android system,even a dual OS,so we are considering for it now.maybe we will update some firmware and try to realize it...I can't give you a accurate answer,but I think everything is possible. ;)

I really like the color scheme in the last GPD WIN render you showed.  ie White Case, black inside.   Looks awesome. The styling also
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 22, 2016, 02:30:44 am
As i also noticed that many player are looking forward to a GPD XD 2.A upgrade one basis on GPD XD.
Yes,we are work for it now!!Be determined is that we will add the Bluetooth,and maybe a 6.0 inch screen.
We are still making for the the Preliminary concept layout now,once i get it,i will share with you all!!
Hope it is a good news for you all!! ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 22, 2016, 02:48:46 am
What about 6 inches screen too in new GPD Win
That would be great.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 22, 2016, 03:08:15 am
What about 6 inches screen too in new GPD Win
That would be great.

Noooooo!!!

5.5 inch the absolute maximum for a handheld, take a look at OnePlus One which has a 5.5 inch screen. You can barely put it in your pockets. 720p on 6 inch will have a lower ppi and it won't be as portable as before.

leafar, you definitely have a different taste than me!

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 22, 2016, 05:14:45 am

I really like the color scheme in the last GPD WIN render you showed.  ie White Case, black inside.   Looks awesome. The styling also

I second this. White outside and black inside gives it more of that professional look that they were aiming for.

And...well I'm glad they're considering Android for those who are wanting it. I just hope this doesn't too much more development time and cost somehow to the device. Hope it won't take too long for this to release. My Q1UP's battery has finally completely died, so I've lost my current Windows gaming handheld in terms of portable play(mostly old school PC games).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 22, 2016, 06:09:33 am
What about 6 inches screen too in new GPD Win
That would be great.

Noooooo!!!

5.5 inch the absolute maximum for a handheld, take a look at OnePlus One which has a 5.5 inch screen. You can barely put it in your pockets. 720p on 6 inch will have a lower ppi and it won't be as portable as before.

leafar, you definitely have a different taste than me!

Don't worry,We will certainly consider the portability, we will use the Corning Gorilla Glass 3 screen and adopt the extremely narrow frame design,so it may just long more 0.5cm than GPD XD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 22, 2016, 06:22:59 am
Don't worry,We will certainly consider the portability, we will use the Corning Gorilla Glass 3 screen and adopt the extremely narrow frame design,so it may just long more 0.5cm than GPD XD.

That'd be great.  The XD has quite a large bezel.  It'd be better used by screen.  I understand that many tablets have larger bezels so you have a place to hold it, but with a device like the XD and XD-Win, we hold the control base.  :-)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 22, 2016, 06:24:47 am
Noooooo!!!

5.5 inch the absolute maximum for a handheld, take a look at OnePlus One which has a 5.5 inch screen. You can barely put it in your pockets. 720p on 6 inch will have a lower ppi and it won't be as portable as before.

leafar, you definitely have a different taste than me!

The XD has a lot of wasted space around the screen.  They could probably use a 6.5" screen without increasing the size of the unit.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 22, 2016, 06:53:55 am
The battery is a 6000mAh Non-removeable Li-PO battery,It can support 6-8 hours online games!!
and now we plan 2 colors, a black one and a white one.
Due to many players want a Android system,even a dual OS,so we are considering for it now.maybe we will update some firmware and try to realize it...I can't give you a accurate answer,but I think everything is possible. ;)

Thanks so much for this. We are so many users that will appreciate this. :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 22, 2016, 08:04:01 am
Just install Android x86. I'll definitely be dual booting mine with an SD card

I don't think it's as simple as "Just install Android x86"... You need specific for the chipset for it to work.
And I haven't heard any talk of them including support for booting from SD card; although this would be *greatly* appreciated!

Due to many players want a Android system,even a dual OS,so we are considering for it now.maybe we will update some firmware and try to realize it...I can't give you a accurate answer,but I think everything is possible. ;)

This is great news. Keeping my fingers crossed for a dual boot version!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 22, 2016, 08:06:27 am
Noooooo!!!

5.5 inch the absolute maximum for a handheld, take a look at OnePlus One which has a 5.5 inch screen. You can barely put it in your pockets. 720p on 6 inch will have a lower ppi and it won't be as portable as before.

leafar, you definitely have a different taste than me!

Personally, since I have to wear glasses anyway, I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll always be carrying a man-bag with me; so I'm not worried about the pocket-ability of such a device. I would welcome a 6 inch screen, but I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't. Though perhaps a small 4 inch version and a large 6 inch version would please everybody?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 22, 2016, 08:29:28 am
Since i get a portable device, my first PSP, i always use a belt-case for carrying my devices (smartphones, gaming devices, etc)

i get a standard PSP belt case, and ask for a guy for made it in leather (for resistant) with few modifications for me (i get a little biggest than original, to allow to carry most devices, including some big)

This is the original i used:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sGFeJEWIlB8/UkKulGyPNSI/AAAAAAAAJWU/CFS6oMyeNZ8/s800-Ic42/_IMG_20130925_110844.jpg)

And this is the case generated:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RV_t_gd9xQA/UnorMdERtFI/AAAAAAAAVIM/vuTyaI2cVfc/s800-Ic42/2013-11-06%25252012.29.51.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MKPqPTITaVA/UnorOZnk-BI/AAAAAAAAVIU/t__SZCLGdQk/s800-Ic42/2013-11-06%25252012.31.28.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YUsIuESsZfI/UnorQjNJp8I/AAAAAAAAXBY/eWFtyW7Njx8/s800-Ic42/2013-11-06%25252012.32.23.jpg)

And there is "mounting" the GPD-XD

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7A0CfNsHdN4/Vo5S0zeVnRI/AAAAAAAAWuo/xoOlxEN5UzY/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sgbl6EcYP1I/Vo5S2zqNCaI/AAAAAAAAWvA/OTStB3usGqM/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

cost of the case: 20?

;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 22, 2016, 11:51:36 am
Nice Denoox

So I just wandering about the WIFI dual band mimo AC.
Kendy give us a hinch
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 22, 2016, 12:59:16 pm
If you keep the clamshell design, the Pandora community and the maemo community will buy this device too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 22, 2016, 02:04:28 pm
What is that tablet in the second picture there?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RV_t_gd9xQA/UnorMdERtFI/AAAAAAAAVIM/vuTyaI2cVfc/s800-Ic42/2013-11-06%25252012.29.51.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on January 22, 2016, 02:08:39 pm
that's the much i5 I think.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 22, 2016, 08:13:04 pm
What is that tablet in the second picture there?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RV_t_gd9xQA/UnorMdERtFI/AAAAAAAAVIM/vuTyaI2cVfc/s800-Ic42/2013-11-06%25252012.29.51.jpg)

iReadyGo Much i5 (http://manguiro.blogspot.com.es/2013/10/review-phablet-console-much-i5-quad.html)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 22, 2016, 09:08:52 pm
I just found it on your blog before you posted.  Looked interesting.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: diablotinbouky on January 22, 2016, 10:44:51 pm
As i also noticed that many player are looking forward to a GPD XD 2.A upgrade one basis on GPD XD.
Yes,we are work for it now!!Be determined is that we will add the Bluetooth,and maybe a 6.0 inch screen.
We are still making for the the Preliminary concept layout now,once i get it,i will share with you all!!
Hope it is a good news for you all!! ;)

@kendyzhu777 If you are looking to do a XD 2....Maybe, opening another topic, it should be more easy...

My advice for xd2: NVIDIA K1, bluetooth, wifi dualband, Bigger screen...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 22, 2016, 10:54:10 pm
and my advice, please consider on doing a PSVita style for this new device. :D
my suggestion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmcntTBrm5E


Note: Sorry if i post again this video, but i think considering there is GPD-Win with clamshell form factor, maybe doing a new device based on psvita style may be a good alternative.

and yes, open another thread for this, please.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 22, 2016, 11:16:47 pm
Sent this to Kendy a little while ago. Just an effort to help hone the finalized device. :) 

(http://i.imgur.com/DrpCsFq.png)
(1) Moved Escape nearby Windows key. If dual-boot with Android, this may be advantageous since Windows key is "Home" and Escape is "Back", I believe. This positioning for Escape is optional of course.
(2) Added separate WiFi and Bluetooth buttons.
(3) Made the GPD logo into the power on/off button. Economizing some area here.
(4) Moved screen brightness to Fn with Volume buttons.
(5) Added Insert key(instead could be a second Windows key, Print key, or another Fn like on Vulcan Flipstart).
(6) Placed joysticks in same row as Dpad and XYAB per the render.
(7) If joysticks don't have center clicks, I added L3 and R3 mini buttons between joysticks and Dpad and XYAB. Seems a good spot for them.

If curious, the <-> in the schematic is the mouse mode toggle switch. Couldn't fit all that in the drawing though. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 22, 2016, 11:39:51 pm
It's probably time to start a keyboard layout thread I suppose.   I created my own layout that I sent to GPD a while back. 

I won't post it here, otherwise this thread would get filled with KB layouts.  When someone starts a Keyboard layout thread, I'll post it there.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 23, 2016, 12:17:03 am
Just hope said keyboard thread doesn't become like the Pyra's keyboard thread(s).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 23, 2016, 03:30:32 am
Sent this to Kendy a little while ago. Just an effort to help hone the finalized device. :) 
...

I really don't like the designs that put all the controls at the top of the base.  It makes you hold it at the top, which can strain your wrists more.  We should have the controls that are most commonly used where people hold the unit.  It will make for more comfortable gaming sessions.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 23, 2016, 03:53:03 am
Sent this to Kendy a little while ago. Just an effort to help hone the finalized device. :) 

(http://i.imgur.com/DrpCsFq.png)
(1) Moved Escape nearby Windows key. If dual-boot with Android, this may be advantageous since Windows key is "Home" and Escape is "Back", I believe. This positioning for Escape is optional of course.
(2) Added separate WiFi and Bluetooth buttons.
(3) Made the GPD logo into the power on/off button. Economizing some area here.
(4) Moved screen brightness to Fn with Volume buttons.
(5) Added Insert key(instead could be a second Windows key, Print key, or another Fn like on Vulcan Flipstart).
(6) Placed joysticks in same row as Dpad and XYAB per the render.
(7) If joysticks don't have center clicks, I added L3 and R3 mini buttons between joysticks and Dpad and XYAB. Seems a good spot for them.

If curious, the <-> in the schematic is the mouse mode toggle switch. Couldn't fit all that in the drawing though. :)

Saber, Start a keyboard thread to kick this off.  Someone has to, and I'm to lazy :p


On a different note:   has it been announced if the GPD WIN will have dual band WiFi?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 23, 2016, 11:07:27 am
Saber, Start a keyboard thread to kick this off.  Someone has to, and I'm to lazy :p

On a different note:   has it been announced if the GPD WIN will have dual band WiFi?
There hasn't been any confirmation yet for dual-band. Would like to know this too, and whether the joysticks are center clickable. :)

As for an infamous keyboard thread, for now I'd rather only offer ideas to Kendy's team by PM and disclose them in this thread to others. There just isn't enough information yet, except for some incomplete renders and specs, so most of these concepts are just imaginative "shots in the dark".
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 23, 2016, 11:17:10 am
Sent this to Kendy a little while ago. Just an effort to help hone the finalized device. :) 
...

I really don't like the designs that put all the controls at the top of the base.  It makes you hold it at the top, which can strain your wrists more.  We should have the controls that are most commonly used where people hold the unit.  It will make for more comfortable gaming sessions.
The Pandora and the Pyra have very comfortable control schemes, but I understand what you mean. In an earlier concept I had moved the joysticks down a little. This is how they usually are anyways on a standard game controller.

There's not much room to work with if we have a keyboard this time, so another way to reduce this wrist strain you speak of could be to place the joysticks again downward and also slightly inward more, then move the outer Dpad and XYAB controls closer(a little) into the center of the machine to give them some breathing room from the machines edges. Decreasing the diameters of the large bowls the joysticks are in could help this too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 01:33:32 pm
+1 for a keyboard thread.

and for me, everybody know my opinion. I prefer a device Without keyboard. for me is an unnecessary element that become the design of the gamepad uncomfortable for most people.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 23, 2016, 01:54:31 pm
Deen0X I'm confused as to why you're so keen for an Android version if you're not interested in a device with a keyboard???

I mean, the whole reason that I want Android running on this device is because of the built in keyboard. There are already plenty of Android devices out there without a keyboard - what makes you so interested in this one??
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 23, 2016, 03:26:17 pm
Deen0X. You are causing a fuss about the addition of the keyboard and you want GPD to adopt your PSVita style design.
No hate, but no one cares about your design. Why would you want to have gamepad controls on the sides of the device?
It kills the portability. Can you put a PS Vita in your pocket? No! Unless you walk around with your stupid case that you have to attach to your belt.

There are dozens of tablets, that's right TABLETS, which already have the things you want. An 8 inch x86 tablet + ipega (whatever) fulfills your needs.

You aren't representing the mass here. Just get a small tablet and a gamepad and you're fine.

We want something unique here. Something we have been waiting for a long time.
We are discussing a clamshell windows HANDHELD, not TABLET, with a full hardware keyboard here. They chose it to be clamshell because it's good for the portability. They considered a hardware keyboard because it will have windows and there are so many games requiring a keyboard.

We got one chance to get it right.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 23, 2016, 05:23:00 pm
Everyone wants the latest cutting edge tech to cater to their needs. Deen0X doesn't represent a minority, either - and I don't know the goals of GPD with this device - so I can't really say that he is wrong and that's that.

On another note, in the army you use belt pouches all of the time - because the uniform doesn't have enough pockets for everything you need to carry. So it really isn't that stupid, what's stupid is skinny jeans and pockets so small that you can barely fit an iPhone in them.

Anyway, I've already explained why having a keyboard on a Windows device is a must, and I still hold that opinion. I also think that the PS Vita design isn't really that bad, but it won't be that comfortable if you were to use the keyboard primarily, as some games do.
But he isn't wrong to suggest those things. Both of them cater to console gamers, while limiting the scope for PC gamers and power users. The fact that he's a part of a different target audience doesn't make his opinion invalid.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 23, 2016, 05:43:21 pm
From what I can tell, it seems like Deen0x is treating this less as a Windows gaming handheld and more like a handheld for playing console games that just happens to run Windows.
I personally want to play console games and PC games. Mostly PC games like flight sims and MMORPG and good that I need both keyboard and controller. Can't be lacking one or the other.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 23, 2016, 07:13:38 pm
I hope it runs Ubuntu.  ;D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 08:15:06 pm
Deen0X I'm confused as to why you're so keen for an Android version if you're not interested in a device with a keyboard???

I mean, the whole reason that I want Android running on this device is because of the built in keyboard. There are already plenty of Android devices out there without a keyboard - what makes you so interested in this one??

I'm SO INTERESTED on X86 device. in fact, i'm most interested on this than ARM version.
What i consider is not necessary is the keyboard, and i get totally against a pandora layout where the keyboard is an important element, and let the game layout released to second priority. in fact, pandora layout is a very very bad layout for comfortable playing, and most of all, is not comfortable for little hands (thinking on kids, or people with small hands)

this is my reason why i don?t like the pandora's layout for this device. but, if the device is released with pandora's layout, I WILL WANT ONE for sure.

i want a device for pure gaming with gamepad. gaming on windows, gaming on android and gaming on what i can run on this. for netbook component, there are plenity of keyboards that i can connect to the device, but my main concern is playing games with gamepad supported (or keyboard, with some program to map gamepad to keyboard). no more.

Deen0X. You are causing a fuss about the addition of the keyboard and you want GPD to adopt your PSVita style design.
No hate, but no one cares about your design. Why would you want to have gamepad controls on the sides of the device?
It kills the portability. Can you put a PS Vita in your pocket? No! Unless you walk around with your stupid case that you have to attach to your belt.

There are dozens of tablets, that's right TABLETS, which already have the things you want. An 8 inch x86 tablet + ipega (whatever) fulfills your needs.

You aren't representing the mass here. Just get a small tablet and a gamepad and you're fine.

We want something unique here. Something we have been waiting for a long time.
We are discussing a clamshell windows HANDHELD, not TABLET, with a full hardware keyboard here. They chose it to be clamshell because it's good for the portability. They considered a hardware keyboard because it will have windows and there are so many games requiring a keyboard.

We got one chance to get it right.


there are no one device that i really can define as "portable windows device". yes, there are plenity of tablets that i can use within a gamepad attached, in fact, currently im using one of them, but for this reason i want a real portable gaming device that  can run windows and android. i want one single device, portable (really portable) that i can use for gaming my steam library or my android games, or emulation, etc. a single device.

my last comment was focussed on the new device from GPD. a pure android device. I think, if we get the GPD-Win, that probably will run DualOS (via firmware update), then there is no reason for getting a similar devie as GPD-Win (with keyboard layout, gamepad, clamshell, etc). is redundant.
For this reason, i suggest to GPD to consider creating another form factor for this new device. something based on their GPD-G58 but with some improvements.

i want a device like PSVita style, running Windows and Android. but for now, if GPD consider only an ARM based device is a start. maybe next device is an improved version of this GPD-G59, but running X86 platform with DualOS.

for me, the best portable design is based on PSVita/PSP style. is more comfortable than 3DS/NDS style. for me and for many other users that think the same as me.


i apoplogize if my insist on other kind of devices may bother some users. This is my point of view from a guy that want to play games on their device, without complications. I really love to mess with devices (most of you know to me that many times i get most time messing with configurations, firmwares, etc, than playing really) and understand the point of view of many people that see this device as a potential replacement of Pandora/Pyra, but i prefer to think on the scope of the device for most people that want to play without complications, play their steam/Gog-Galaxy/uPlay/etc games. games that support gamepad.

my directions are always on this. Games that can i play with gamepad. other things that we can do is something advance (maybe, mapping gamepad to keyboard, etc), but consiering only gampead supported games, the device itself will gain a lot of titles that we can play directly on it, from their release.

Kendy, please, open a new thread for the GPD-XD2 device, for stop bugging this thread with these kind of posts.

Greetings!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: cybermat on January 23, 2016, 09:08:54 pm
I find this thread very interesting. I agree with a psvita form factor and with the chance of a possible dual boot option.
Windows 10 mobile is the big bet... i hope developers will be able to port all the emulators present on Windows to this new platform. I'm not satisfied of Android, current mame implementation (stuck at 139u1),the mess of retroarch where you never know which core is based in order to use the proper romset.
I think that with good dpad+analog, psvita form factor and dual boot option GPD could make a nice product. It's time to drop a new RK3399 based device :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 23, 2016, 09:26:54 pm
i am 100& with you Denoox.
i dont like clamshell devices,bulky,no ergonomic,no portable.
the belt pouche eveybodys preferences
PSP vita design all the way
keyboard, buy a bluetooh,ubs,foldable,cover case what ever.
Pandora and Pyra UMPC,notebook,linux 75%, the other 25% gaming device max 30 minutes play time ( i think ).
Windows gaming handled device that it should be, like razor or the other one in UK with the two controllers,dont remenber the name.sorry, i want something like this with better specifications.
if it comes with keyboerd i get it, ok no problems i will buy one.
dual boot my prefer.
And those are my opinions.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 23, 2016, 09:31:12 pm
The Pandora and the Pyra have very comfortable control schemes, but I understand what you mean. In an earlier concept I had moved the joysticks down a little. This is how they usually are anyways on a standard game controller.

There's not much room to work with if we have a keyboard this time, so another way to reduce this wrist strain you speak of could be to place the joysticks again downward and also slightly inward more, then move the outer Dpad and XYAB controls closer(a little) into the center of the machine to give them some breathing room from the machines edges. Decreasing the diameters of the large bowls the joysticks are in could help this too.

I've not used either, but I've used the Sharp Zaurus and Sony Vaio UX.  The Zaurus had a great keyboard, and it was less than 4" across.  They just didn't have as many keys.  The Sony Vaio UX had too many, and the keyboard was a mess.  So, I'm suggesting a less-is-more approach.  Add a Fn key for numbers and functions, and keep the keyboard compact.  This is just a suggestion, obviously.  If you guys have used one that worked best, I'm all for that. :-)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 23, 2016, 09:34:09 pm
No hate, but no one cares about your design.
...

I do.  I like his ideas.  I want a clamshell for this design, but I don't see any issue with him making suggestions for the next.  This is an opinion thread, and I wouldn't ever tell anyone that we didn't respect theirs.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 09:57:56 pm
No hate, but no one cares about your design.
...

I do.  I like his ideas.  I want a clamshell for this design, but I don't see any issue with him making suggestions for the next.  This is an opinion thread, and I wouldn't ever tell anyone that we didn't respect theirs.

agree with you about there any can comment their ideas here. May be they like or not to us, but if there is respect commenting them, i don?t see any problem with this.

I don?t like the keyboard idea (i said many times), but this don?t mean that if he want to suggest something i must go against him. in fact, may be there is some keyboard idea that i finally like, but if i can?t see these ideas, then i will not realize on it.

after all, GPD will do what they consider, and our opinions only few times will be consider (with so much lucky)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 23, 2016, 10:18:11 pm
What i consider is not necessary is the keyboard, and i get totally against a pandora layout where the keyboard is an important element, and let the game layout released to second priority. in fact, pandora layout is a very very bad layout for comfortable playing, and most of all, is not comfortable for little hands (thinking on kids, or people with small hands)...
Actually, I don't have large hands either and I have to say that the Pandora has very comfortable controls for gaming. Having the Dpad, Nubs, and AYBX all set on the upper half and the keyboard partition on the lower half it is through usage a surprisingly ergonomic setup.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 10:28:39 pm
ok, we are again in another dead point. XD

you may consider and may prefer a pandora setup.

i don?t. i prefer a comfortable layout for gaming, similar to current GPD-XD because i don?t have any interest on the keyboard.

there is no way discussing this, because we are discussing about personal preferences and point of view about the device.

i don?t agree with your opinion, but is ok if you think this way and i respect it.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 23, 2016, 10:39:40 pm


ok, we are again in another dead point. XD

you may consider and may prefer a pandora setup.

i don?t. i prefer a comfortable layout for gaming, similar to current GPD-XD because i don?t have any interest on the keyboard.

there is no way discussing this, because we are discussing about personal preferences and point of view about the device.

i don?t agree with your opinion, but is ok if you think this way and i respect it.

I'm with you Deen0X... I rather prefer a more gaming styled device than a second Pandora with a keyboard in it (you probably won't use it THAT MUCH anyways)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 23, 2016, 10:46:26 pm
Hey @kendyzhu777 a question to you Could the Windows version of the XD be called XDW? (W for Windows). Think it would be catchier than GPD Win (atleast in my opinion). Also seeing a dual boot option on it, or a way to install Android on it (RemixOS maybe?) would be cool
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 10:53:51 pm
remix may be complicated. there is needed to compile some things for include, such touch panel...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 23, 2016, 11:08:33 pm
Well, this was just a suggestion... But seeing RemixOS on it would be cool anyways
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 23, 2016, 11:27:31 pm
Getting Ubuntu running on it should be trivial, getting it to run well is another thing, but I can't see it being too hard as long as they don't source some weird hardware. (Wifi, Bluetooth etc) consoleOS would be good for an android target. I was doing this exact same thing on a Windows tab like 6 months ago, got it booting Ubuntu and a fair portion of the hardware working (touchscreen etc) if nobody beats me too it, I'll create a flash image for this device with dual or triple boot with grub, and people can work on making that better if they want. Either way, it will happen in a short time frame after its released if it doesn't support it out of the box.

Keep it Windows out of the box though, as that is one area that we as a community can't really produce a great answer unless it's supported officially. Windows is weird sometimes.

I hope GPD is not seriously considering a controller only version of this, while it might make a few people happy, I think the majority of us, and the unspoken majority as well wants a keyboard with a Windows device. For those that want a more comfortable controller, just use a Bluetooth. Sacrificing a bit in the comfort to add the extra functionality a hardwired keyboard brings is well worth it. Bluetooth keyboards are bulky and for the most part finicky, where Bluetooth game controllers are generally small and behave properly.

Point being, sacrificing slight comfort to add functionality is an acceptable trade off, and don't worry about which OS should come stock, keep it Windows, the community (even myself) can take care of strapping on android and Linux.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 23, 2016, 11:39:03 pm
Point being, sacrificing slight comfort to add functionality is an acceptable trade off, and don't worry about which OS should come stock, keep it Windows, the community (even myself) can take care of strapping on android and Linux.

The question is - must there be a tradeoff? Isn't there some possible button arrangement that puts all of the game keys near the edge and the keyboard near the middle?
I think that they have some redundant buttons, or that with some shuffling around, we could make this work, satisfying both target audiences without sacrificing comfort.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 23, 2016, 11:44:33 pm
I love the Clamshell design with keyboard GPD have come up with.   To be honest I can't wait for it.   I must say , I find the Pandora layout to be the most comfortable of control layouts .  It boggles my mind to see some people say go for a PSP layout, as it's the most uncomfortable control scheme for me .   You are forced to either crane your thumbs down to reach the stick, or hold the device low near the bottom so that the whole thing pivots and tries to twist forward out of your hand. What a night mare.   The funny thing is, I had been using my PSP when those comments were made about it being comfortable.  I almost fell out my chair in disbelief, surely we are not talking about the same device. Each to their own I guess.

The problem is most people have never used the Pandora layout and are talking out of fear rather than fact.  I can see this thing changing to address those fears and ending up being the IBM PC Jr of things. Something that was compromised so that it wasn't usefull to anyone.

On a different note, when the Pandora was being designed by the community, and the 300 page thread on it still exists, all sort of concepts were put out there including sliders, they have all been gone through before.  Non were feasible. The layout chosen was the most feasible and comfortable layout as chosen by the community. 

The high control positions (like on the Pandora) are the natural positions your thumbs go to when holding a handheld - and your fingers (underneath) hold the unit from top to bottom - ie not the top.  Your thumbs point upwards , not downwards, which means reaching any controls in the low positions results in craning your thumbs down to reach them in a way that is cramp inducing, or you have to hold the device near the bottom edge where the whole device is then pivoting and trying to twist forward out of your hands.  What a nightmare. 
 
When you use the left stick and buttons on a xbox 360 controller which are both in the high positions, it's comfortable. Also in the high positions, are the dpad and buttons on a PS3 controller which are comfortable to use also.  To make the controls in the low positions accessible on these controllers ,  the grip battons angle inwards which means your thumbs are not directly pointing up, but rather are rotated to a 45 angle .   It's basic controller ergonomics, as the angled grip battons also keep your wrists straight with your arms.   On a rectangular clamshell, you don't have that luxury, the straight edges mean your wrists bend up and your thumbs point even higher up - and are not rotated to make it any easier to reach the low controls


And here's the rub, if you change the layout , others  are going to complain not just about the KB, but the control placement.  There's this talk that a compromise can be gotten that puts controls in the most comfortable spot.  A agreed on most comfortable spot does not exist.   IF you put controls in one spot , people will complain,. if you change it, people will complain.   So by moving things around you screw one aspect royally(the KB) while still having people complain about the control layout.

Also , remember, You can turn a keyboard off.  You can't turn one on that doesn't exist
 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 23, 2016, 11:50:46 pm
On a different note, when the Pandora was being designed by the community, and the 300 page thread on it still exists, all sort of concepts were put out there including sliders, they have all been gone through before.  Non were feasible. The layout chosen was the most feasible and comfortable layout as chosen by the community.

yes, but a community that want these both elements: gamepad and keyboard. There we must understand that Pandroa users are not the same as normal/casual users that need only the gamepad layout.

i commented this on other forums (where are similar threads), and there is the same: people that love the keyboard concept and people that don?t want it(because the game layout is modified to be less comfortable)

i think is wrong to think that most people prefer one or another option. as i can see, half people want one option, and half prefer another option.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 24, 2016, 12:16:48 am
i think is wrong to think that most people prefer one or another option. as i can see, half people want one option, and half prefer another option.

Ok, lets say this is correct. Half want one option, the other half does not.

If the controller only group has their way, the half that wanted a keyboard don't get a functioning keyboard.

If the keyboard + controller group has their way, then the controller only group still gets a functioning controller.

vcoleiro1 saying that some groups of people will complain regardless because it's not their preferred placement or layout.

The balance has to be met to make the most people happy, so given the situation where one opinion directly contrasts with the other, while the other tries to make both people happy, do you still feel your stance is correct?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 24, 2016, 12:20:30 am
i think is wrong to think that most people prefer one or another option. as i can see, half people want one option, and half prefer another option.

Ok, lets say this is correct. Half want one option, the other half does not.

If the controller only group has their way, the half that wanted a keyboard don't get a functioning keyboard.

If the keyboard + controller group has their way, then you still get a functioning controller.

vcoleiro1 saying that some groups of people will complain regardless because it's not their preferred placement or layout.

The balance has to be met to make the most people happy, so given the situation where one opinion directly contrasts with the other, while the other tries to make both people happy, do you still feel your stance is correct?

as i mentioned, any layout that GPD-Win release, i will want one. my preferences are withouth keyboard, but if this come within the device, i will use anyway (the device itself, the keyboard, i doubt), then, you're right with your last comment, but this don?t mean that i agree with this, but i must accept if there is no other choice.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 24, 2016, 01:20:08 am
 i dont own a pandora,the only reason to small for my big hands.but a really like the concept of the whole system as all in one device.
snesfan and vcoleiro1 tell me the situation when you use the keyboard to play game, i do understand for old windows games and some cases with a mouse combination how to do it,but right now in 2016 mostly of the games is better to play with a gamepad.
in android no keyboard at all, only touch and gamepad.
in pc games i believe gamers use both keyboard and gamepad like 50/50 or 60/40 (i think).
in console games gamepad all the way .
did we really use all the key to play a game,wich one.
i believe that GPD has the design all ready,like vcoleiro1 and made china says plenty space to work around with good advice of this community.
thanks for all the collaboration
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 24, 2016, 01:57:34 am
Okay, I was a bit harsh when I said no one cared about Deen0X's designs/ideas. But let me point out that there are dozens of handhelds already with gamepad controls (maybe not windows, but still). There is none with a keyboard, not even an Android device.

I will understand that you want a gamepad, I also want a gamepad but the thing is some here are hoping that GPD ditches the keyboard, while the keyboard people also want a gamepad or aren't bothered by the fact that tere will be a gamepad. Why can't the gamepad-only people make compromises?

The keyboard people will get a keyboard, the gamepad people will get a gamepad. There is no one here who says there needs to be a keyboard-only device. Only some gamepad-only fanatics hoping to ditch the keyboard into oblivion.

Speaking of Oblivion (the game :D), you can't play that game well with a gamepad, you definitely need a hardware keyboard for that. And DOS games, RTS games etc. also require the keyboard.

And while it is great to have Android support, it will disappoint the guys who want to run emulators in it.
The emulators for Android aren't actually made for x86. They are poorly optimized ARM ports. Just look at ZenFone 2 PPSSPP performance and you will understand me.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: jbach50 on January 24, 2016, 02:07:57 am
well the Open Pandora (and whatever the successor is called) have keyboard and controller pad in 1. you say that nowadays PC gamers dont need keyboards, what with mice and all... now think of one of the main uses of GPD's devices, retrogaming. now old videogame systems, yes no keyboard needed. however, picture playing old dos based games.... DOSBOX on android works fine, but still need an onscreen keyboard to do some things.. a build in physical keyboard would make it so much better
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 24, 2016, 03:21:43 am
snesfan and vcoleiro1 tell me the situation when you use the keyboard to play game, i do understand for old windows games and some cases with a mouse combination how to do it,but right now in 2016 mostly of the games is better to play with a gamepad.
in android no keyboard at all, only touch and gamepad.
in pc games i believe gamers use both keyboard and gamepad like 50/50 or 60/40 (i think).
in console games gamepad all the way .
did we really use all the key to play a game,wich one.

I am personally a fan of game controls, I only emulate game consoles that had game controls. I sometimes play newer games, but the PC games I play mostly have game control mapping built into the game. Witcher 3, GTA and stuff like that. EDIT: I also play old dos games like command and conquer, warcraft, scorched earth, masters of orion etc.

My argument isn't for my personal use case, it is for those that have the need for a keyboard. I speak on behalf of others I think. I will also use the keyboard if it's there, but not for gaming. For web browsing, typing emails, instant messaging, some scripting work etc.

The pandora when it was envisioned had a main goal of being an Amiga and Commodore emulator, but strong enough to emulate lots of other machines as well. There wasn't anything out there in the handheld realm that could copy 1:1 it's functions. I was born after the amiga/commodore era so it's main intended use was lost on me. However I understand the desire. If people cared as much to emulate those systems as much as I love to emulate the SNES for example. Then I will not fault them in wanting only the very best portable experience in doing so.

Mini menu, which is a game console style launcher was a main point of attraction.

So fast forward a bit, the pandora now has captured the attention of programmers and pocket PC enthusiasts. Maybe it did in the beginning as well, but most of the people that are left in that community are more drawn to the additional things it does. Web browsing, emails, programming, etc.

The "full desktop OS" that ran as a boot option is pretty much now their main selling point as a desktop PC replacement (it is not powerful enough to replace your desktop... maybe pyra... maybe)

anyway, the point I am standing behind is that, for some, the use for a feature will possibly outlive the gaming potential of this device. It will be the smallest & cheapest x86 windows laptop in the world (will also run linux if you give it time). Just like the pandora is the way for ARM linux.

This will be a cult device much like the pandora if they make it as much of a miniature PC with gaming controls and a keyboard. You may not want it now, but 5-10 years from now, you may be extremely glad they made this with a keyboard. Even if you can't see yourself using it right now. I bought the pandora back in 2009, I wanted it for console emulation. I use it today, some 7 years later for it's PC functions when I'm away from my laptop/desktop.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 03:43:25 am
I've already described the plethora of games that need a keyboard on the top post on page 16 of this thread.  Others have also given many examples of games that need a keyboard.   

Anyway, moving on.  I like the inclusion of Blutooth I noticed in the specs.   Good move I think.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 24, 2016, 04:09:30 am
And while it is great to have Android support, it will disappoint the guys who want to run emulators in it.
The emulators for Android aren't actually made for x86. They are poorly optimized ARM ports. Just look at ZenFone 2 PPSSPP performance and you will understand me.
For technical reasons, you will most likely want to play emulators on windows over android besides the lack of optimization. Windows doesn't run stuff like dalvik or android run time (ART) for the heart of it's OS. The issues people mention about audio or control latency are caused by that, more specifically, the scheduler. Even if you aren't sensitive to it, it's there. And there's retroarch for windows if you like retroarch that gives the exact same interface if that's the draw for android.

There are many emulators out there for x86 that are optimized at the same level as android (even if you feel they are not optimized) they are there. PCSX-rearmed and drastic are my 2 favorite examples for excellently optimized ARM emulators. PPSSPP also has lots of ARM/NEON assembly code optimizations even if you don't think it's as good, it's still there.

An example of a similar though; For Nintendo DS, No$GBA is written in x86 assembly for windows at similar levels as Drastic is for ARM/NEON on android.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 24, 2016, 04:57:17 am
The question is - must there be a tradeoff? Isn't there some possible button arrangement that puts all of the game keys near the edge and the keyboard near the middle?
I think that they have some redundant buttons, or that with some shuffling around, we could make this work, satisfying both target audiences without sacrificing comfort.

That's what I've been trying to get across.  As long as the controls are still laid out on the sides of the unit, the keyboard will be in dead space anyway.  A small keyboard is all that is needed.  Just something for simple text input.  I know there are some people that want to code on the unit, and maybe they still could, but if gaming is the biggest focus, I'd like a keyboard for the games that require them.  Many games on Steam only have partial gamepad support, so some keyboard presses are needed.  As well, there are times we want to edit a config file, or the registry.

The current XD is over 6 inches across, and there is over 2.5 inches of dead space in the center of the d-pad and buttons.  If we move each over a half inch, we could fit a 3.5 " keyboard in the center.  That is just under the size of the Sharp Zaurus keyboard, and that could be edited to be a little smaller.

(http://www.mobiletechreview.com/image/zaurus_c3200_keyboard.jpg)

I really don't think there needs to be a compromise.  I think we can have a good gaming device with keyboard, that doesn't upset either side of the debate.

But... that's me. :-)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 05:08:23 am
Yes it would, it would upset anyone who thinks GPDs control scheme (ala Pandora) is the best control scheme. 

As I said, and this seems to be going through the cracks everytime I say it.  Is that people have different opinions on what the most comfortable control scheme is.   Personally IMO, controls on the side one above the other in a high low configuration is the worst control scheme ever.  And I just gave a long long explanation as to why.   The problem here, is that some people think their idea of comfortable controls is fact and not just their opinion. They are also not even acknowledging that others have different opinions on the most comfortable control layout. If you change the control layout , others will complain, there is no nirvana control layout that will please everyone.

As for the KB between the controls being feasable, well no, the keys would be crammed in a 3 inch wide space. In a decent but minimal keyboard config with minimal key seperation , each key would be about 3-4mm wide.  Completely unusable.   (BTW , that very minimal Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000 keyboard you showed, has a keyboard that is 6 inches wide)


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 24, 2016, 05:55:39 am
As for the KB between the controls being feasable, well no, the keys would be crammed in a 3 inch wide space. In a decent but minimal keyboard config with minimal key seperation , each key would be about 3-4mm wide.  Completely unusable.   (BTW , that very minimal Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000 keyboard you showed, has a keyboard that is 6 inches wide)

lol...  Nice try.  It isn't 6 inches.  That's funny.  The keyboard is from the SL-C3200, and the entire device was only 4.9 x 3.4 x 1.0 inches.  The keyboard is not 6".  They keyboard is just 4" across, and could easily be edited to fit in a 3.5" slot.

Here is the review I got the pic from: http://www.mobiletechreview.com/Sharp-Zaurus-C3200.htm
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 06:08:09 am
Oh I see, I got the model number wrong . Although, whether it's 5 or 6 inches (with minimal side space) the point I made remains true.   It;'s still far from 3 inches

There is a big difference between the two,  You can see that KB is already heavily minimised, where's alt, page up, page down, insert, pause, break, escape, the windows key, the function keys, num pad keys via numlock  etc etc.  If you tried to put a decent minimal KB between the controls, allowing a 6" wide device with at least 1.5" on each side for the controls to edge of the Keyboard. Each key would be tiny and unuseable trying to cram it into a 3inch space.. 

When the KB between controls design was put out there, I didn't just say, ahh nah.  I actually did the maths thinking it might be workable . But no, it's not.    There is just no way , unless you made the device wider , to get a usuable KB in there.  And if you made it wider, then the keys in the  middle wouldn't be reachable.   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 24, 2016, 06:25:20 am
Whether it's 5 or 6 inches the point I made remains true.   It;'s still far from 3 inches

Well, it's neither.  It's 4 inches, and needs only to get to 3.5".  Not really that far.  The current XD has the controls that you are calling terrible, but many people really like the control scheme on the XD.  Many think it is the best control scheme.  It is also why many people do not want a keyboard, since it would adjust the current control scheme.  They don't want it to change.  It doesn't matter what else they have tried, or if you love the Pandora control scheme.  Most of the people have used the current XD control layout and they love it.  I also would like it to be close to the same, so am suggesting barely editing it, and putting a keyboard in the dead space.  My thought is about doing a pretty good compromise. 

You may not like it, and that's fine.  You are a big fan of the Pandora, and that's okay.  You don't need to agree with my idea.  No one has to.  GPD isn't really taking these ideas and doing anything with them.  This is all for fun, and discussion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 06:28:24 am
I'm not calling the XD controls bad. If you think that, you didn't read my post.  The XD indents the lower controls in and up.  In a controls on the side near the edge scheme as you proposed and I commented on, the bottom controls are at the bottom and near the edge.  Completely different things

That keyboard with minimal side space is 5" wide. Also, it misses a ton of keys that need to be added.  As I said, I actually did the math, and the keys for a decent minimal keyboard would be too small to fit in a 3" space. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 24, 2016, 07:02:25 am
And did you miss the point that that keyboard with minimal side space is 5" wide. Or that it misses a ton of critical keys that need to be added.  As I said, I actually did the math, and the keys for a decent minimal keyboard would be too small to fit in a 3" space.

I'm not sure which math you used.  Is that new math?  How did you get a 4.9" wide device to have a 5" keyboard.   Even if it didn't have large borders around it, it couldn't be 5".

Here is a bigger pic for you:
(http://www.penguin.cz/~utx/zaurus/fully_opened.jpg)

See the unused Japanese keys.  Those could easily house an Alt and Windows key.  Even if it wasn't edited a bit.  Since the D-pad wouldn't be there, you could add even more keys.  Could even turn the - key into another Fn key.  It has good spacing, and a row of number keys, and is just an example of a keyboard style that would work. 

I'm not calling the XD controls bad. If you think that, you didn't read my post.  The XD indents the lower controls in and up.  In a controls on the side near the edge scheme as you proposed and I commented on, the bottom controls are at the bottom and near the edge.  Completely different things
Obviously, you didn't read what I said.  I suggested moving them out a half inch, and put the keyboard between them.  They would still even be slightly indented.  Never said to put any controls at the bottom.

I'm pretty much done discussing this with you.  You are just trying to twist things around.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 09:05:14 am
I said it's about 5"  and yes sorry it's 4.9" my mistake with some side spacing as you see in that pic. And it's missing a lot of keys that need to be added, which will need to be added.  And keys need minimum spacing between them. If you reduce that keyboard, you cant really reduce the spacing between keys, as the smaller the KB is, the more important spacing is.   ie you don't want to be hitting multiple keys. The math I'm talking about is what size keys you get for a minimum decent KB.  I created one up  with minimum sized small keys 8x5mm and 2.5mm spacing it takes up pretty much the 6 inches width allowing  ~ 1cm  either side. It has 5 rows of 13 keys(single width).  ie I actually spent 2 days mocking a minimum decent KB and working out minimum key size and spacing for it to be viable.  I also looked at keys needed in games like flight sim to see if the keys were adequate to allow you to play them. It took lots of time to get the right mix

Controls towards the bottom and side edges - let me explain, I'm simple saying by spreading the dpad/buttons by half an inch as you suggest, they then are now close to the edge and have to be lowered also as the buttons would otherwise overlap the right stick. Have a look at the GPD XD controls, you can't simply move the dpad/buttons out to the edge without also lowering them. In the end they would be close to the edge and lower than they are. Hope that's clear now.

Have a look at GPD's early mockup with a KB between the controls as shown below. The keys are tiny.   It's not like I'm saying anything different to what GPD have already shown. Notice  the lack of required spacing between the keys. Notice also that the dpad and buttons are now pushed towards the edge (only 9mm from the edges)  and down. If you indent them(dpad&buttons) as per the XD, you get even less room for the KB. So now controls are moved into new positions which a lot of people will find uncomfortable and will complain about it, as I commented to earlier. The KB GPD mocked up below represents a 3" KB.  If you add minimum key spacing , you also get tinier keys than what's shown below(Keys which are already to small). As I said, you would end up with tiny unpractical keys.

(http://boards.dingoonity.org/gpd-devices/windows-handheld-device/?action=dlattach;attach=4541;image)

Ok , now lets do some maths to test your Zaurus KB.   I mentioned it's missing a lot of keys.   You mentioed you could remove the dpad and put a few keys there.  If you do that, that dpad is acting as the left, right, down and rigth arrows keys you find aon a normal KB.  If you remove the dpad, you then need to add in those 4 arrow movement keys.   Plus there is all the other keys I mentioned are missing.   But you know what, whatever, lets say you could remove the dpad as you suggest and add 3 keys in its place.  Then by tripling up on other keys labels and using special keys, you can add in all the missing keys somehow.   

With all that, you would end up with a keyboard that has 5 rows: top row of 11 keys, middle 3 rows with 10 keys and the bottom row with 13 (single width keys) - the space is dual width.

Lets do the maths.

The GPD XD is 155mm wide.

You mentioned pushing  the dpad/buttons out by .5 inches or 12.5mm. They are currently 20mm form the edge. So they would now end up only 7.5mm from the edges .

On the dpad side you get a 7.5mm edge spacing, the dpad is 19mm wide, plus add only a 10mm gap to the keyboard
On the buttons side, you get 7.5mm edge spacing, 25mm wide for the buttons edge to edge, and 10mm spacing to the keyboard.

That all adds up to 79mm . Subtract that from 155mm and you get 76mm(3") for the keyboard.

Assuming a minimum 2.5mm key spacing as ive mentioned before.  You get a top row with keys that are 4.6mm wide
The middle rows would have keys that are 5.35mm wide
And the bottom row would have keys that are 3.5mm wide.


Even with the Zaurus super minimized keyboard that somehow we hypothectically modified to handle a lot of missing keys,  the keys are unpractically small.  For a 5 rows of 13 keys keyboard I said was required, you get all keys being 3.5mm wide if you tried fitting it in that 76mm space
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 24, 2016, 10:04:36 am
I'm SO INTERESTED on X86 device. in fact, i'm most interested on this than ARM version

But then why the need for Android???
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 24, 2016, 10:35:37 am
I'm SO INTERESTED on X86 device. in fact, i'm most interested on this than ARM version

But then why the need for Android???

Again... Because I want a single device with android and Windows.

GPD is working on a new arm version. Is a completely different think that this thread (that is Windows device)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 10:46:27 am
Hopefully GPD start a GPD XD 2 thread.  I'm keen to see thir early plans.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 24, 2016, 01:09:48 pm
I wonder if GPD could provide us the latest concept.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 24, 2016, 01:20:22 pm
They said they will have a new render image for the WIN soon on facebook.  Not sure what that means.

If you are referring to the XD 2, I have no idea.  Hopefully soon also

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 24, 2016, 01:34:32 pm
Yeah I was referring to the GPD Win. Guess I need to keep an eye on their Facebook page.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 24, 2016, 02:40:03 pm
I think the main problem with keyboard design is the shape of the individual keys more than anything else. If you want to scale them down, don't make them flat - rather, make them trapezoid, which will allow you to distinguish between nearby keys because you're going over grooves and getting tactile feedback.
Again, I'm taking my notes from the BlackBerry keyboards, which have proven themselves time after time to be usable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 24, 2016, 10:40:09 pm
I hope they won't use rubber membrane keys for the keyboard. Dome switch is the way to go. It gives you that nice tactile feedback.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 25, 2016, 12:06:33 am
I've seen a video like 2 years ago with a case for an iPhone 5 that had a slide out keyboard connected via Bluetooth. The keyboard part itself was like 2-3mm thick which was amazing to see, that they made it working... Sadly it had only letter keys, without numbers etc (or atleast that's what I remember, lol). Seeing this kind of keyboard on the new GPD, would be nice
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 25, 2016, 02:54:36 am
Created a rough layout with five total keyboard rows alternating between twelve to thirteen keys per staggered row. The assumption is each key would be around 9mm long and thicker than the width of the volume buttons on the XD(total length 15cm). Also, every row is at least one centimeter from the edge and spacing between keys is minimal since the keys have the appropriate peaks and valleys necessary to distinguish them from their nearest key(similar to Nokia N900 keyboard style).

Some things worth knowing:
(1) Home key is the Windows key.
(2) <-> denotes the mouse mode switch.
(3) GPD logo is dually the Power on/off button.
(4) Escape is reachable yet shouldn't be accidentally pressed.
(5) WiFi and Bluetooth toggles could be a Fn value on keyboard or on volume controls.
(6) Only the two Shifts and the Spacebar are larger than the other keys.
(7) Just an exercise in creativity. :)

First, here is the layout without all the info or the Fn/Shift symbols added:
(http://i.imgur.com/30NjNrE.png)

and now with:
(http://i.imgur.com/DZ0MxPH.png)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Enkill77 on January 25, 2016, 03:32:15 am
I'm with Deen0x too, I prefer a psvita design, or better, a psvita + pdp addon (more comfortable).

I want to play fps, tps, race games, etc. And android OS for emulators. Xppader it's a solution for config all bottoms I need, in fact, i'm playing fps like wolfenstein 2009 or half life 2 without any problem ... maybe I will want the number bottons for exchange the weapons for older games without gamepad support, placed under the screen ...
 
I don't gonna buy a 3ds design, it's not made for me and my goals ... xD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 25, 2016, 03:38:06 am
Created a rough layout with five total keyboard rows alternating between twelve to thirteen keys per staggered row. The assumption is each key would be around 9mm long and thicker than the width of the volume buttons on the XD(total length 15cm). Also, every row is at least one centimeter from the edge and spacing between keys is minimal since the keys have the appropriate peaks and valleys necessary to distinguish them from their nearest key(similar to Nokia N900 keyboard style).

Some things worth knowing:
(1) Home key is the Windows key.
(2) <-> denotes the mouse mode switch.
(3) GPD logo is dually the Power on/off button.
(4) Escape is reachable yet shouldn't be accidentally pressed.
(5) WiFi and Bluetooth toggles could be a Fn value on keyboard or on volume controls.
(6) Only the two Shifts and the Spacebar are larger than the other keys.
(7) Just an exercise in creativity. :)

First, here is the layout without all the info or the Fn/Shift symbols added:
(http://i.imgur.com/30NjNrE.png)

and now with:
(http://i.imgur.com/DZ0MxPH.png)

Maybe you could color code some of the keys so that it's visually easy to see what keys the fn/alt etc access.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on January 25, 2016, 09:57:32 am
Don't really get why would anyone want Android for emulators (when alternative OSes are available). Android is terrible from a performance point of view, many emulators are rubbish (like all PSX emulators except the Retroarch one). No hate or anything, so don't punch me  :P
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on January 25, 2016, 10:53:42 am
Don't really get why would anyone want Android for emulators (when alternative OSes are available). Android is terrible from a performance point of view, many emulators are rubbish (like all PSX emulators except the Retroarch one). No hate or anything, so don't punch me  :P
I think it's easy to understand why. Ease of use.
Windows emulators generally aren't set up for for controllers (except ppsspp). If I get the GPD Win I do intend to use it for emulation but I accept it probably going to take a good bit of trial and error and using something like emulation station or ICE to accommodate the small screen.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 25, 2016, 11:20:09 am
It takes minimal effort to set up a controller with emulators on Windows though.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 25, 2016, 11:26:29 am
for me is more comfortable the emulation on Android. For my son too.
there is no other reason.
you can explain that windows is better emulating, and their interface may offer better settings, but personally prefer android versions. are simple, easy to usage with touchscreen, and simply because i prefer android because what i play is running perfect on this system. i don?t need more for my emulation needs.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on January 25, 2016, 11:34:41 am
Don't really get why would anyone want Android for emulators (when alternative OSes are available). Android is terrible from a performance point of view, many emulators are rubbish (like all PSX emulators except the Retroarch one). No hate or anything, so don't punch me  :P
I think it's easy to understand why. Ease of use.
Windows emulators generally aren't set up for for controllers (except ppsspp). If I get the GPD Win I do intend to use it for emulation but I accept it probably going to take a good bit of trial and error and using something like emulation station or ICE to accommodate the small screen.

Oh, I suppose that's fair. Although if GPD decides to pre-install some piece of software like that "Emulation station" you just mentioned, then BAM, the whole problem is insta-solved, no? Plus, for home computers emulation Android is much more fiddly than any major desktop OS.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 25, 2016, 01:00:19 pm
I hope they don't ship with any software on them and I hope it is easy to reinstall Windows because I'm not trusting software like that coming pre-loaded from China. Android is insecure but so many more bad things can be done on Windows.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: cybermat on January 25, 2016, 01:10:52 pm
Surely a format would help! :D

I think that UWP is the key, i trust in Win 10 Mobile. I hope developers too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 25, 2016, 01:25:03 pm
Seeing it's the same device for everyone with little to no difference between units, it should be possible for one person to make a launcher with every high-end emulator installed and configured for the GPD Win and distribute the installer/archive for everyone.

DOS - DOSBox.
Atari 2600 - Stella.
NES, SNES, GB, GBC, GBA - Higan.
Nintendo 64 - Project64.
DS - DeSmuME.
GC/Wii - Dolphin.
PS - ePSXe.
PS2 - PCSX2.
PSP - PPSSPP.

Seeing as (at least what I consider) the top emulators are just 9, it should be very possible to just configure them once for performance on the most popular games, distribute it for the community and be done with it. That way it's accessible even for those who don't feel comfortable tinkering with the settings.

EDIT: Completely forgot about SEGA devices, and devices like the WonderSwan! My bad, but I'm not too familiar with them as I took the other side in the console wars. However, they shouldn't add too much to the list.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 25, 2016, 03:13:33 pm
without all the info or the Fn/Shift symbols added:
http://i.imgur.com/30NjNrE.png[/img]
with:
http://i.imgur.com/DZ0MxPH.png[/img]

Maybe you could color code some of the keys so that it's visually easy to see what keys the fn/alt etc access.
It's straightforward what is under Shift if you've ever seen a standard U.S. or U.S. International keyboard I suppose, but short of putting more work to color it, I will recapitulate some things.

(1) Home, PageUp, End, PageDn are the prime values for the XYAB button cluster. No modifiers needed for them. This is the same effective orientation as found on the Pandora.
(2) Numbers 1 through 0 and - and = have their usual Shifted values [email protected]#$%^&*()_+ and Fn values F1 to F12.
(3) Brackets [ and ] also have their common Shift values { and } but now have Fn values | and \ to decrease the total number of keys in that row.
(4) Punctuation ; ' , . / all keep their standard Shifted values of : " < > ? but the  ; and ' now have Fn values of ~ and ` so another key wasn't required for that row.
(5) Caps Lock, being that Fn is on the left side, is a Fn value under Right Shift. This also reduces the amount of obligatory keys per that row, as was the central goal of this layout.

In addition, letters and vowels have their uppercase counterparts under Shift but no other input demands a modifier, Shift, Fn or otherwise. The brightness, volume controls, mouse toggle switch are all single press/slide as is the power button(called it "GPD" which would be in white letters on a dark red power button in my dreamed up layout). :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 25, 2016, 03:31:38 pm
This is a layout with even fewer keys per row(I'm not overly fond of it because of the uncustomary arrangement and that it condenses too much. Limit of keys per row is reduced to twelve.
Without labeling and Shift/Fn values: http://i.imgur.com/wuWFrkV.png
With all the stuff: http://i.imgur.com/mFedXf4.png
------------------
Here's the more serious layout I did yesterday, the one with thirteen keys total per row. Felt compelled to fix the confusing error(calling the Windows key also "Home" even if that is also what it is referred to on the Wiki).
Without labeling and Shift/Fn values: http://i.imgur.com/sC7gtbM.png
With all the stuff: http://i.imgur.com/nffeEBP.png


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on January 25, 2016, 06:00:29 pm
lots of games available on windows that arent on android. Ps2 emulator on windows. (shadow of the colossus.) Give me the GPD xd running windows and id be happy. it would need either a mini keyboard(physical) or more buttons. Windows games have lots of controls. having a [plethora of buttons solves this] using a mini keyboard would mean little setup. ontop of all that plenty of steam games can run on low power devices. A windows gaming tablet in a similar vein as past gpd devices with a built in mini keyboard would be an instant buy from me. and by instant ----wait for the first couple batches to ship and have the kinks worked out(happens at every gpd release) you know like hardware revisions. facepalm.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 25, 2016, 07:54:12 pm
Seeing it's the same device for everyone with little to no difference between units, it should be possible for one person to make a launcher with every high-end emulator installed and configured for the GPD Win and distribute the installer/archive for everyone.
...

Here is a list of emulators on my Windows setup that someone unfamiliar with the OS may like to have ready when the GPD Win is released. These might not be the latest or greatest versions but they are the ones I use most often.

Atari 2600: Stella 4.67
ColecoVision: Colem 3.5
NES: Nestopia 1.46
SNES: Snes9x 1.53
Sega Master System: Meka .73(best sound)
Sega Genesis: Kega Fusion 3.64(grab the plugins pack)
Gameboy, Color, Advance: VisualBoyAdvanceM 1229
PC Engine: Magic Engine 1.1.3
N64: Project64 1.6 from Jabosoft(upgrade 1.6.1 plugins)
NDS: DeSmuME 0.9.10
Dreamcast: NullDC 1.04_r136
PS2: PCSX2 1.21-r5875
Gamecube, Wii: Dolphin 4.02
Arcade: MAME Plus XTLite .0164r5260

On occasion I'll hunt for another emulator to try out, but these stand the test of time in my opinion.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 25, 2016, 09:22:04 pm
Here is a list of emulators on my Windows setup that someone unfamiliar with the OS may like to have ready when the GPD Win is released. These might not be the latest or greatest versions but they are the ones I use most often.
-snip-

Seeing as the GPD Win won't come out in the next few months, I don't think narrowing the emulators down to a revision is necessary - seeing as there are already advancements made on a daily basis. PCSX2 is already at version 1.4.0, and Dolphin is being planned for a 5.0 release this year.
I also think that if possible, the higher accuracy emulators should be used. SNES9x and zSNES were fine a decade ago, but now we have a way of properly emulating those systems - higan. It's still rough around the edges for the sheer number of consoles its trying to emulate, but it is far more accurate than even NESTopia or NESTicle on the NES side.

But, yeah. We should compile a todo list, that way we can make GPD Win user and emulation friendly off-the-bat.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 25, 2016, 09:31:06 pm
I'm guessing the answer is no, but since it's been a while since Iv'e followed it.  Is there a chance Hyperspin will work on the Z8500/WIN?.   I haven't been following it to see if they optimised it over the years.


Also, Someone mentioned having a high end GPD WIN model option with a Z8750, add me to the list seconding that idea.


@Saber, I'm not a big fan of having keyboard keys on the game controls(like XABY buttons) and I'll tell you why.  If you map some keys used to fire etc to the XABY game buttons, how do you also access the pg up, dwn,lft, rght keys that the game may also use for other functions?  Maybe I missed something there that makes it workable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 25, 2016, 10:31:08 pm
i did send a messages to CNX software website  and GPD Win is there even in liliputing website too,getting more player
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 25, 2016, 11:30:27 pm
These are the games I definitely want to play on the handheld:
- Red Alert 1/2
- Medieval 2: Total War
- Starcraft II
- TES: Morrowind
- TES: Oblivion

Every DOS game
Every simulation game

Playing these types of games will only be possible with a hardware keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 25, 2016, 11:30:53 pm
Kendy hurry up, over 700 replays and over 30.000 view, betwen those two topic, thats good.
we need to know about:
keyboard layout
controllers layout
WIFI, mimo dual band 5 ghz
option to upgrade SOC at least the x7 cherry trail.
dual boot for sure
4 gb or 8 gb
heat sink fan cooling system, this for sure.
stylus
maybe Linux.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 26, 2016, 02:38:11 am
@Saber, I'm not a big fan of having keyboard keys on the game controls(like XABY buttons) and I'll tell you why.  If you map some keys used to fire etc to the XABY game buttons, how do you also access the pg up, dwn,lft, rght keys that the game may also use for other functions?  Maybe I missed something there that makes it workable.
There will always be tradeoffs with such a pocket-sized device, but I think having PgUp and the others on the XYAB buttons is user friendlier than putting all four of them on just two keyboard keys or all under Fn for some atypical game with an inflexible remapper. Besides that, a similar dispute could be brought on as well about the Dpad having keyboard Up, Down, Left, and Right assigned to it.

Evidently though the OpenPandora crew fully accepted all of this since the same arrangement of PgUp and such on the gaming buttons carried over to the Pandora's heir, the Pyra. Perhaps they found it truly was such a rare issue not worth troubling over that they disregarded the apparent problem entirely because the benefit by far outdistanced the inconvenience of not doing it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 26, 2016, 02:52:35 am
Here is a list of emulators on my Windows setup that someone unfamiliar with the OS may like to have ready when the GPD Win is released. These might not be the latest or greatest versions but they are the ones I use most often.
-snip-

Seeing as the GPD Win won't come out in the next few months, I don't think narrowing the emulators down to a revision is necessary - seeing as there are already advancements made on a daily basis. PCSX2 is already at version 1.4.0, and Dolphin is being planned for a 5.0 release this year.
I also think that if possible, the higher accuracy emulators should be used. SNES9x and zSNES were fine a decade ago, but now we have a way of properly emulating those systems - higan. It's still rough around the edges for the sheer number of consoles its trying to emulate, but it is far more accurate than even NESTopia or NESTicle on the NES side.
The problem with highly accurate emulators though is they are resource intensive and while the list I gave can be updated to the latest versions, the ones I compiled above have worked well for me with enough accuracy and playability to be fun under Windows 7. Anyone who wants to of course can grab the newest executables if they like.

By the way, big thanks for pointing out PCSX2 is now at 1.4.0 stable. :) 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 26, 2016, 03:50:17 am
Sorry for the little slowly design progress.we will try to make it fast,but we need to considering many,so it may a little slow.please be patience.we hope and try to make the GPD Win can meet most of you imagination.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 26, 2016, 09:18:44 pm
@Saber, I'm not a big fan of having keyboard keys on the game controls(like XABY buttons) and I'll tell you why.  If you map some keys used to fire etc to the XABY game buttons, how do you also access the pg up, dwn,lft, rght keys that the game may also use for other functions?  Maybe I missed something there that makes it workable.
There will always be tradeoffs with such a pocket-sized device, but I think having PgUp and the others on the XYAB buttons is user friendlier than putting all four of them on just two keyboard keys or all under Fn for some atypical game with an inflexible remapper. Besides that, a similar dispute could be brought on as well about the Dpad having keyboard Up, Down, Left, and Right assigned to it.

Evidently though the OpenPandora crew fully accepted all of this since the same arrangement of PgUp and such on the gaming buttons carried over to the Pandora's heir, the Pyra. Perhaps they found it truly was such a rare issue not worth troubling over that they disregarded the apparent problem entirely because the benefit by far outdistanced the inconvenience of not doing it.

I wonder though if their decision to do that has anything to with the fundamental differences between keys normally used for Linux and Windows games.   Not sure.  But yes, in the layout I drew up, pg up, dwn etc are under the FN key.  I also have a num lock and numpad keys. Other than that everything else fit on the normal keys including the arrow keys. I'll PM you a copy of it

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 26, 2016, 09:57:56 pm
i did send a messages to CNX software website  and GPD Win is there even in liliputing website too,getting more player

Well you succeeded in getting news coverage for the GPD WIN.   It's now on both CNX Software and Liliputing.

http://liliputing.com/2016/01/gpd-plans-to-launch-gaming-handheld-pc-with-windows-10-cherry-trail-cpu.html

http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/01/25/gpd-hk-is-working-on-a-windows-10-portable-game-console-powered-by-intel-atom-x5-z8500-soc/
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 26, 2016, 10:21:23 pm
Can I throw in my 5 cents to stuff for the GPD? I think it would be nice to see a stylus for it, to easier click some stuff on the screen... Even a cheap one would be nice, but that's only my opinion... You don't have to agree with it
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 26, 2016, 10:42:44 pm
Can I throw in my 5 cents to stuff for the GPD? I think it would be nice to see a stylus for it, to easier click some stuff on the screen... Even a cheap one would be nice, but that's only my opinion... You don't have to agree with it
That's not a bad suggestion, and it was even suggested by a few before. I don't know if GPD is tight on space, but a Samsung Galaxy Note 4-style stylus and receptacle will be a nice touch. I wouldn't call it mandatory and don't think it will make or break the device, but if they can fit it in - more power to them.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 26, 2016, 11:17:49 pm
i think it should be a stylus uption accessories for the 5.5 inches screen in windows mode. i hope so.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on January 27, 2016, 01:55:50 am
wow people are excited about this being a Windows UMPC. thats so cool. people who dont even game are gonna want this. I could see a stylus being very useful in windows on such a small device. hopefully it wont be active(the samsung s pen always seems too inaccurate for me. ) I guess i would like to see a full size USB port. Or more than one micro usb port as a windows machine is gonna need power and USB ports.  Maybe a dock as others have suggested. Im very excited about this device!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 27, 2016, 01:58:45 am
That sure would attract more customers. But I don't know how functional a resistive screen would be. Maybe adding an active digitizer is the way to go if they decide to add pen input. That way, you can keep the capacitive screen which is utilized for finger input and use the digitizer overlay for the pen.

It really sounds like a luxury feature, but who knows?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on January 27, 2016, 02:19:24 am
i guess they could implement some kind of mouse joystick driver. but navigating on windows on a 5 in device is gonna be impossible.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on January 27, 2016, 03:29:12 am
I'm not sure what the tech is on the Shield Tablet, but it has a decent stylus and I don't think they used a very expensive technology.  May be the one to go with.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 27, 2016, 07:04:35 am
A stylus would be kind of cool.


On a different note: I found some info on the cooling Intel use for their Compute stick PC Sticks. They have a model with a Cherry Trail SOC and one with a Core M.  Looks like they use a big heat sink and tiny fan.  The Core M Compute Stick seems to use a touch bigger heat sink


(http://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/intel-compute-stick-inside-645x502.jpg)

(http://androidpc.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Intel-compute-stick-Fan.jpeg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 27, 2016, 07:44:18 am
I am not a fan of a fan (no pun intended). Active cooling would be big drawback for me. Small devices should have no moving parts in my opinion.

Despite the size, the intel compute stick is no portable device so having moving parts isn't a big problem.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 27, 2016, 08:16:20 am
I now where you are coming from and agree mostly.  It's always better to have no moving parts and well, not use things that will draw power. 

That said, if the shit hits the fan, pun intended, and we need something more than a heat sink and if the Fujitsu vapour cooling product isn't available as an option either, then a fan may have to be considered.  The good thing I guess , is that it doesn't kick in unless the SOC gets hot, which shouldn't be all the time.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 27, 2016, 06:07:20 pm
wow people are excited about this being a Windows UMPC. thats so cool. people who dont even game are gonna want this. I could see a stylus being very useful in windows on such a small device. hopefully it wont be active(the samsung s pen always seems too inaccurate for me. ) I guess i would like to see a full size USB port. Or more than one micro usb port as a windows machine is gonna need power and USB ports.  Maybe a dock as others have suggested. Im very excited about this device!

I think kendy already confirmed that there will be one full-sized USB 3.0 port and one USB Type C port.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 27, 2016, 06:19:51 pm
Just wondering:
Microsoft uses liquid-cooling for some of their Surface tablets and Lumia phones. Would something similar be feasible on the GPD Win? Something like that could probably easily take care of most overheating and throttling issues, but I understand if it'll be too expensive.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 27, 2016, 06:20:37 pm
I'm not sure what the tech is on the Shield Tablet, but it has a decent stylus and I don't think they used a very expensive technology.  May be the one to go with.

Its just a high resolution capacitive sensor, with all calculations offloaded by the GPU via cuda.  GPD would have to write a custom driver and a wrapper to integrate with the tabletpc api and/or wintab (fat chance there).  If not, it would be nothing more than a mouse to applications.  The only 2 active digitizers remaining for for implementation would be Wacoms EMR (expensive) or synaptics horrendous capacitive implementation.  Wacom AES is another option, but its not been seen in a device smaller than 7" to date.  N-Trig was purchased by MS last year and is not licensing n-trig for use outside of its surface line.  Either way you're looking at a 150 or 50$ bump in device price for hardware and licensing. 

 Having said that, depending on the form factor, I would pay good money for a wacom enabled unit.  Would have to have a full on slate mode, really again Deenox's psp style design with the pull up screen was ideal for cramming everything everyone wants into one portable device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 27, 2016, 06:24:00 pm
Just wondering:
Microsoft uses liquid-cooling for some of their Surface tablets and Lumia phones. Would something similar be feasible on the GPD Win? Something like that could probably easily take care of most overheating and throttling issues, but I understand if it'll be too expensive.

Certainly would be cool, but 0 chance.  Engineering requirements probably wouldn't pay off without a huge bump in price.  Not really sure what all the crying about active cooling is about.  The choice between a faint whirring noise at high load, or a throttled gaming handheld with middling to low performance, is a no brainer.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on January 27, 2016, 08:56:07 pm
Dual sdxc card slots right? And a bright 1080p display is a must for me. I can deal with the atom part -even though I want amd.

And for the love of all things holy the controls MUST have an xinput driver. I can't stress that enough.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 27, 2016, 09:01:03 pm
Just wondering:
Microsoft uses liquid-cooling for some of their Surface tablets and Lumia phones. Would something similar be feasible on the GPD Win? Something like that could probably easily take care of most overheating and throttling issues, but I understand if it'll be too expensive.

Certainly would be cool, but 0 chance.  Engineering requirements probably wouldn't pay off without a huge bump in price.  Not really sure what all the crying about active cooling is about.  The choice between a faint whirring noise at high load, or a throttled gaming handheld with middling to low performance, is a no brainer.

Better cry now about active cooling than cry about battery life later. The battery is already small. If this thing gets active cooling the battery will be good for spinning the fan only.

Handhelds, tablets shouldn't have moving parts. It is awkward.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 27, 2016, 09:32:46 pm
Actually the Vapour/Water cooling used in the MS Lumia phones etc is a product sold by Fujitsu.   I'm just not sure it's hit the main stream yet.   It's well worth GPD looking into, at least to get pricing for it.  I don't think it would be all that much, there's not really much in it. It's used in conjunction with a heat sink.  http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/resources/news/press-releases/2015/0312-01.html


(http://static.electronicsweekly.com/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/03/25mar15-Fujitsu-thin-cooling-device-photo.jpg)

(http://static.electronicsweekly.com/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/03/25mar15-Fujitsu-thin-cooling-device-heat.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 27, 2016, 11:11:07 pm
So we need l heat sink cooling fan system for sure.so please a removable battery is a option,or maybe a big flat battery behind of the display, and we have space on the main hardware.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 28, 2016, 02:05:12 am
Battery behind the display would be too top-heavy. Battery and LCD are usually the heaviest parts and you don't want to bundle them together. Probably other problems with the heat of the battery potentially affecting the screen, especially if it starts to fail and expand it could damage the screen that way too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on January 28, 2016, 02:57:42 am
I've been lurking for awhile.  Just wanted to add my two cents.

(needed)Game controls need to be xinput
(preferred)I would prefer an X7 cherry trail with 128GB eMMC (maybe have two versions, a low end and a high end)
If you do have two versions, on the high end one I'd prefer to have 8GB of RAM and make sure it's in dual channel which should help the gpu considerably
(Wish) Also also if there is a higher tier version, I would prefer to have a SIM card slot so I could make it my phone.  Intel has a modem - Intel XMM 7262 Slim Modem (which supports LTE worldwide)

I don't really care about design at this point.  Since I would like to use mine as a phone, naturally I would prefer DeenOXs renders that look like a PS Vita, but I would be fine with a clamshell as well.  Basically, I don't care about design anymore.  I am just willing to settle for a gaming phone of any kind with good hardware. (I mean I would prefer a larger Xperia Play type of device with Win10, but I am tired of waiting for updated hardware)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 28, 2016, 03:08:27 am
Just wondering:
Microsoft uses liquid-cooling for some of their Surface tablets and Lumia phones. Would something similar be feasible on the GPD Win? Something like that could probably easily take care of most overheating and throttling issues, but I understand if it'll be too expensive.

Certainly would be cool, but 0 chance.  Engineering requirements probably wouldn't pay off without a huge bump in price.  Not really sure what all the crying about active cooling is about.  The choice between a faint whirring noise at high load, or a throttled gaming handheld with middling to low performance, is a no brainer.

Better cry now about active cooling than cry about battery life later. The battery is already small. If this thing gets active cooling the battery will be good for spinning the fan only.

Handhelds, tablets shouldn't have moving parts. It is awkward.

Ill take 3 hours of skyrim over 8 hours of NES emulators.  I already have a device for that, its called the GPD XD. 
Its smarter for us to take the performance up front, its your perogative to adjust the power settings (its windows after all) and cripple your CPU and turn your cooling audio profile to level 1 if longevity for low powered apps is what you want.  The opposite is not true for the rest of us should they go in that unfortunate direction.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 28, 2016, 03:17:01 am
Being the somewhat proud owner of a new linx Vision tablet, I can tell you this.  Atom X5 8300 with 2gigs of ram running windows 10 is near useless for gaming and emulation. Simply not enough ram.  Psp emulation is significantly faster than Nvidia K1, but the ram situation causes periodic micro studders which are very annoying in more demanding games, plus windows pops up messages suggesting killing the program due to lack of ram.  Gundam VS Gundam Next plus 1 frameskip auto runs full speed though between studders every few seconds, even on the k1, 2 frameskip auto is required, and the audio still skips near constantly.  4 gigs of ram and a fast emmc is a must if you're going windows 10.  The linx Vision would have been a killer android tablet.  Ill probably see if RemixOS will run on it without broken drivers, the gamepad is just a pure usb HID gamepad that looks like an xbox 360 controller.  Android would scream on this thing.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 28, 2016, 03:30:06 am
Hello,I know the Z8700 chip may not so expensive than Z8500.but it is not just a point for chip itself.The development cost for Z8700 is very high and it is also not so mature for us to use it .And Z8700 chip production is't a lot.This is also a limitation.Cause we tend to make a portable Windows devices.so the space may hard to support a Z8700 chip,cause its calorific value is huge than Z8500.so maybe we need to add a cooling system for it.But It is hard to realize for a portable device. Z8500 is the most mature solution and we have test that it is enough for a Windows devices.you can run many huge online games smoothly!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 28, 2016, 03:35:24 am
About the cooling for GPD Win,Cause for 8500/8550,this chip calorific value is not be huge and the power consumption is also low,so we may add a Heat Sink in the device.and the mold is also easy to cooling.we think it is enough for cooling.Please do not worry about it.we have consider carefully and test for the cooling.please trust me.we always want and try to make a prefect console for you all.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on January 28, 2016, 03:46:27 am
Hello,I know the Z8700 chip may not so expensive than Z8500.but it is not just a point for chip itself.The development cost for Z8700 is very high and it is also not so mature for us to use it .And Z8700 chip production is't a lot.This is also a limitation.Cause we tend to make a portable Windows devices.so the space may hard to support a Z8700 chip,cause its calorific value is huge than Z8500.so maybe we need to add a cooling system for it.But It is hard to realize for a portable device. Z8500 is the most mature solution and we have test that it is enough for a Windows devices.you can run many huge online games smoothly!!

Sounds good.  If 4GB RAM is 100% the spec, please make sure RAM is 2G+2G for Dual channel ram.  Since the system ram needs to feed the GPU,

Single channel ram (1x4G) speed = 12.8GB/s
Dual Channel Ram (2x2G) speed = 25.6GB/s

That's my only concern if the spec if more or less finalized.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 28, 2016, 04:00:26 am
@kendyzhu777,

The hinge is pretty good on the GPD XD clamshell, can you ensure with the GPD WIN that the hinge is also just as robust(good).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 28, 2016, 04:08:09 am
kendyzhu777,go for x5 8550
2x2 dual channel
4 or 8 GB
Heat sink cooling fan system
Faster MMc
Xinput
But kendyzhu777 what about the WiFi Mimo dual band  5ghz you never said nothing about it
Stylus.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 28, 2016, 04:16:48 am
Unless they go for a resistive touch screen, a stylus with the required digitizer would be far too expensive to add to a device that's likely seeking to command a relatively low price tag. If this was $1k device with ultra high specs or other already expensive components, then sure.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on January 28, 2016, 05:12:29 am
Was just reading the technical paper on the x5-z8500 and the display controller supports eDP 1.3.  It's too bad that Intel doesn't have FreeSync support in the driver just yet, but it would have be an excellent feature to tout, considering that framerate will fluctuate so much.

Of course the display used would need to support adaptive sync.  But technically, if the display *did* support adaptive sync, whenever Intel updated their drivers to support adaptive sync, all of the hardware on the GPDWin would support it.

Here's a link showing that Intel has already confirmed they will eventually support FreeSync (adaptive sync): http://techreport.com/news/28865/intel-plans-to-support-vesa-adaptive-sync-displays
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on January 28, 2016, 06:58:08 am
@kendyzhu777,

The hinge is pretty good on the GPD XD clamshell, can you ensure with the GPD WIN that the hinge is also just as robust(good).

Yes,It is the same with GPD XD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 28, 2016, 02:56:07 pm
@kendyzhu777,
The hinge is pretty good on the GPD XD clamshell, can you ensure with the GPD WIN that the hinge is also just as robust(good).
Yes,It is the same with GPD XD.
Vic(vcoleiro1) kindly shared his keyboard layout with me like he did you by PM. I liked some of it, but I altered several elements, decreasing the keys per row from 13 to 12, removing numeric keypad, and rearranging some things.

Key points:
(1) Dual Fn as on the Vulcan Flipstart.
(2) Hardware toggles for Brightness, Volume, WiFi, and Bluetooth integrated into the Fn layer all on the second row. Gives a cleaner look to the machine.
(3) Mouse mode switch accessible by either thumb.
(4) Antiquated Scroll Lock, Number Lock, and Pause/Break included for old Windows games. They are placed in the middle away from the main punctuation.
(5) Left and Right Mouse clicks assigned to L3 and R3. I think the function serves them well considering the placement.
(6) Control Alt Delete command is possible.
(7) PageUp, PageDn, Home, End are on the keyboard. Could still make YAXB these four, respectively, also by default as on the Pandora/Pyra handheld. Extremely handy for browsing long text and web pages.

With all the info:
(http://i.imgur.com/D8P4YKj.png)
Without all the info:
http://i.imgur.com/6KvBh7O.png
***switch between images to eye the difference.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 28, 2016, 03:36:36 pm
saber and vic nice done look promising
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 28, 2016, 08:28:50 pm
TBH, I feel the Left and Right click buttons would be better suited on the shoulder buttons, both for gaming and general usage.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 28, 2016, 09:59:26 pm
In regards to the NumLock/NumPad keys.


I should note the reason I added them (as sub labels accessed via numlock) on certain keys.  The reason is that when I designed the keyboard I had a number of criteria to be met. One of the criteria was that it had to be able to support games that used a keyboard, of those sims was a good measure.  So for that I used flight simulator and ensured the keys it used where catered for on the keyboard.  The thought there was that if it could handle Flight Simulator, it could handle most if not all games.   

So why the Numlock and numpad keys seconded on certain keys?.   Because games like flight simulator use them. 
http://snomhf.exofire.net/data/FSX_KeyboardCommands.jpg

I would strongly advise leaving them in and not removing them.

Also , for mouse clicks , perhaps it might be better - considering how the right stick will be used as the mouse in mouse mode, for the L1 and L2 buttons(or other keys/buttons on the left side) to be used for mouse clicks.   The reasoning here is that you want buttons that can be easily accessed by your left hand only for mouse clicks, while your right thumb then stays on the right stick in mouse mode.   If you use R3 , then you would have to take your thumb of the right stick(mouse) to click it.   So I would suggest in light of all that perhaps using L1, L2 or left/right on the Dpad for mouse clicks



Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on January 28, 2016, 11:21:41 pm
I def agree performance over battery life. 3 hours of playing halo ce; oblivion; steam games is preferable to any other alternative's. Maybe the device doesn't need to be flat. THink the Fuelcell(batteries, 18650s) in the handles of the Nvidia SHield (original.) maybe it could even still be flat with a heatsink/fan in the center and two batteries on either side. maybe even make them removable(we could supply our own 18650's driving price down) it would increase longevity aswell. many lithium batteries fail after 2 years. just some thoughts. I wouldnt mind a thicker device if it meant more power, better cooling, longer battery life etc...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 28, 2016, 11:25:03 pm
In regards to the NumLock/NumPad keys.

I should note the reason I added them (as sub labels accessed via numlock) on certain keys.  The reason is that when I designed the keyboard I had a number of criteria to be met. One of the criteria was that it had to be able to support games that used a keyboard, of those sims was a good measure.  So for that I used flight simulator and ensured the keys it used where catered for on the keyboard.  The thought there was that if it could handle Flight Simulator, it could handle most if not all games.   

So why the Numlock and numpad keys seconded on certain keys?.   Because games like flight simulator use them. 
http://snomhf.exofire.net/data/FSX_KeyboardCommands.jpg

I would strongly advise leaving them in and not removing them.

Also , for mouse clicks , perhaps it might be better - considering how the right stick will be used as the mouse in mouse mode, for the L1 and L2 buttons(or other keys/buttons on the left side) to be used for mouse clicks.   The reasoning here is that you want buttons that can be easily accessed by your left thumb only for mouse clicks, while your right thumb then stays on the right stick in mouse mode.   If you use R3 , then you would have to take your thumb of the right stick(mouse) to click it.
It's GPD's enviable decision on what should be in their layout and what won't make the cut. The thing about R3 being Right Mouse Click is it seemed intuitive and it was for people who might use the Win, however unusual, on a tabletop. I have no preference if the mouse buttons are on the shoulder buttons instead, but these reasons were why I made the assignments. The other thing about R3 is the distance is so negligible from the Right Joystick, and selecting through the menu it initializes could also be run through with the Dpad. 

As for the number pad, beyond a game's remapping abilities, if Number Lock is colored faded yellow(as was in your layout) we could if space permits on these keys place a numeric keypad in smallest form where you had it in yours, starting with 7 8 9 on R T Y, descending downward vertically with 4 5 6 on F G H, then 1 2 3 on V B N, then ending with 0 on letter C. 

Alas, there's always only so much we can fit in such a small area.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 29, 2016, 12:06:56 am
@Saber , I'll be making a few edits to my keyboard and then I'll post it here.  I will make some changes to the shift/return positions as you suggested.  I'll keep the Numpad keys and the 13 keys per row.   I'll fix up select and start and move the vol/brightness to the keys as you have. 

I should note, if you missed it,  Kendy mentioned (somewhere, FB or here) that the GPD WIN will be tiny bit 5mm larger (presumably wider) than the XD. Which is good, gives a touch more room for the KB.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 29, 2016, 12:24:47 am
@Saber , I'll be making a few edits to my keyboard and then I'll post it here.  I will make some changes to the shift/return positions as you suggested.  I'll keep the Numpad keys and the 13 keys per row.   I'll fix up select and start and move the vol/brightness to the keys as you have. 

I should note, if you missed it,  Kendy mentioned (somewhere, FB or here) that the GPD WIN will be tiny bit 5mm larger (presumably wider) than the XD. Which is good, gives a touch more room for the KB.
Sounds good Vic. Just to be clear though, I fancy the numeric keypad in faded yellow in addition to the Fn layer already presented. So, double the values on just those ten keys is what I was getting at(and if space per key can accommodate their inclusion).

I'll bet GPD is having quite the time formulating their layout. We both know it's not easy terrain to trek. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 29, 2016, 12:39:47 am
Yes, I bet they are
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 29, 2016, 12:53:53 am
Yes, I bet they are
:)

How I'd arrange the numeric keypad values on mine:
http://i.imgur.com/Co45pRe.png
original without any modifying:
http://i.imgur.com/6KvBh7O.png
***switch between images to compare.

Oops, forgot numeric insert and delete. Probably stick them to W and S, and labeled in the smallest print as ins and del.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on January 29, 2016, 01:22:33 am
Unless they go for a resistive touch screen, a stylus with the required digitizer would be far too expensive to add to a device that's likely seeking to command a relatively low price tag. If this was $1k device with ultra high specs or other already expensive components, then sure.

They could pull off a wacom emr with the current specs for about 349 just based on rough component msrps, so with some mass production, that number could easily hit 299$.  Unfortunately people in here freak out as soon as the price nears 200$.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 29, 2016, 04:31:45 am
Problem is Wacom would still have to license the technology out to GPD, which I have high doubts of them doing. Either that or the licensing costs would be too much. Plus even if the components would "only" jack up the price by maybe $50-100, GPD would likely raise the cost even more for research and implementation. Same reasons as to why GPD isn't using the Z8700 despite people saying component costs won't be much.


Also, I'm thinking I'd rather have Left click on R and Right click either on L or R2. I know it's a reversal of labels, but if you're right handed it'll be more natural to click with the R button. Just like clicking the left button with your right index finger (again, if you're right handed).

EDIT: Though...Teclast's X16 Pro isn't much more expensive than their X98 Pro, if at all. Specs are about the same, but while the x98 had a really high res screen, the X16 has a pen digitizer instead. Maybe GPD could see the viability of a pen digitizer for their device after all. Though, if they do I think they should probably do what Teclast and Microsoft do and sell the pen separately. People who want one can buy it and people who don't won't have to pay extra for their Windowa gaming handheld. Speaking of the X16, it seems to come with a detachable keyboard (at least with some sellers)....gives me hope for a sub-$250 device GPD Win.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on January 29, 2016, 10:30:31 am
My price ceiling for this gpd win is ~$250, especially for a weak atom chip.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 29, 2016, 03:38:23 pm
Made revisions to the unofficial layout:
(1) Additionally assigned PgUp, PgDn, Home, End, - and + to YAXB and Select and Start. Page zooming is done by Ctrl with - and + so it's extra convenient on such a small device to also have - and + there. Shoulder buttons could be mouse clicks, left and right Shifts, and/or Ctrl and Alt keys.
(2) Print Screen and legacy Scroll Lock and Pause/Break are in "proper" order.
(3) Added media keys Play/Pause, Stop, and Mute(on letter m).
(4) Context Menu is now on Fn with Windows key, and Insert is Fn with Delete.
(5) Number Lock is moved to Fn with Caps Lock. Easier to toggle in and out of the keypad by having it there. NumLk and the numeric keypad values I imagine could be colored in faint yellow.

With everything labeled:
http://i.imgur.com/Lj1qQL6.png
Without labels:
http://i.imgur.com/kDQS3gu.png
Number pad:
http://i.imgur.com/IFgovXD.png
***switch between images to see differences.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 29, 2016, 03:48:49 pm
I think dual purposing some buttons makes the device far more convoluted than it should be, and aside from being confusing - it's alienating newcomers.
I don't have a clear-cut solution, but I think the extra buttons (right alt, ctrl, Fn keys) could be replaced with some of the more general purpose buttons, and others should be dropped. For instance, the long hyphen and the minus sign are interchangeable and windows switches between them automatically, not to mention the long hyphen isn't even an ASCII symbol.
Bluetooth, WiFi, Vol+/Vol- shouldn't be mapped to the keyboard - remember that some buttons are originally located on the side of the device rather than on its face!
Also, I don't think the gamepad buttons should have an alternate keyboard use - they should be used purely for gameplay. If they were used as a keyboard input, mapping them would be a total nightmare for PC games, and I don't think XInput would be possible.

Anyway, those are just my 2 cents. I know some of the modern ports use Insert/Page Up/Page Down for their default mappings (like Dragon's Dogma and Toukiden), but they often support XInput if not proper remapping, so that's the way to play them.
The other category that fits the bill is extremely old PC games, but DOSBox also allows you to remap those buttons.
So the few games that don't allow remapping and use those buttons are extremely rare, and I don't think going the extra mile to make them playable is a must - especially since it complicates and clutters the layout for everyone else.

EDIT: Now that I'm thinking about it, you don't even need BT and WiFi keys if you're tight on space. The Windows Notification Center has their toggle for a press of a button already - and on Windows, unlike Android, it isn't considered a task that involves high skill to enable or disable.

EDIT 2: I don't want to steal your thunder, but I made some adjustments to your layout:
http://i.imgur.com/h3L9GNr.jpg
This is by no way perfect.
I removed most media keys, as macros can be set from within Windows.
Removed right modifiers because of space limitations. Split / and \, otherwise coders would kill me (not to mention it's a bit confusing).
Removed NumLock/ScrollLock/CapsLock, for being redundant - we don't have a numpad, we have a built in mouse that functions similarly to the arrow keys (the d-pad and the analogs), and the CapsLock only has minimal purpose for most and is largely a nuisance.

Notes for those who will modify my design:
I think fitting all of the F1-F12 keys on one row is possible and should be done. Escape should be pushed elsewhere.
We need a more fitting place for the mathematical keys: =, ~, -, +. I think they belong with the brackets, but I haven't the slightest clue how are we going to fit them in there.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 29, 2016, 07:15:26 pm
I think dual purposing some buttons makes the device far more convoluted than it should be, and aside from being confusing - it's alienating newcomers.
I don't have a clear-cut solution, but I think the extra buttons (right alt, ctrl, Fn keys) could be replaced with some of the more general purpose buttons, and others should be dropped. For instance, the long hyphen and the minus sign are interchangeable and windows switches between them automatically, not to mention the long hyphen isn't even an ASCII symbol.
Bluetooth, WiFi, Vol+/Vol- shouldn't be mapped to the keyboard - remember that some buttons are originally located on the side of the device rather than on its face!
Also, I don't think the gamepad buttons should have an alternate keyboard use - they should be used purely for gameplay. If they were used as a keyboard input, mapping them would be a total nightmare for PC games, and I don't think XInput would be possible.

Anyway, those are just my 2 cents. I know some of the modern ports use Insert/Page Up/Page Down for their default mappings (like Dragon's Dogma and Toukiden), but they often support XInput if not proper remapping, so that's the way to play them.
The other category that fits the bill is extremely old PC games, but DOSBox also allows you to remap those buttons.
So the few games that don't allow remapping and use those buttons are extremely rare, and I don't think going the extra mile to make them playable is a must - especially since it complicates and clutters the layout for everyone else.

EDIT: Now that I'm thinking about it, you don't even need BT and WiFi keys if you're tight on space. The Windows Notification Center has their toggle for a press of a button already - and on Windows, unlike Android, it isn't considered a task that involves high skill to enable or disable.

EDIT 2: I don't want to steal your thunder, but I made some adjustments to your layout:
http://i.imgur.com/h3L9GNr.jpg
This is by no way perfect.
I removed most media keys, as macros can be set from within Windows.
Removed right modifiers because of space limitations. Split / and \, otherwise coders would kill me (not to mention it's a bit confusing).
Removed NumLock/ScrollLock/CapsLock, for being redundant - we don't have a numpad, we have a built in mouse that functions similarly to the arrow keys (the d-pad and the analogs), and the CapsLock only has minimal purpose for most and is largely a nuisance.

Notes for those who will modify my design:
I think fitting all of the F1-F12 keys on one row is possible and should be done. Escape should be pushed elsewhere.
We need a more fitting place for the mathematical keys: =, ~, -, +. I think they belong with the brackets, but I haven't the slightest clue how are we going to fit them in there.
Thanks for the feedback. It's immensely helpful. We all have conflicting opinions on what is paramount for the rest. I tried to partner alike functions and symbols by row and column to keep the layout as carefree as possible. Wanted to maintain some semblance of familiarity in those groupings.

On my keyboard, ~ is in the upper left corner, same as `. I didn't want to move _ - + = to the left side but I think my choice to cluster all of these six symbols at the left edge was decent. Much had to be moved but I also didn't want to leave any keys at the Fn layer blank. I was reluctant though to demote Volume and Brightness controls to the keyboard, but it was justified since there is relatively little space up in the gaming area. I think / and \ go nicely together given the scarcity of keys.

Not sure what you meant by long hyphen, unless you're referring to underscore. 

Media keys I don't need but I couldn't think of what else to fill there. WiFi toggle is somewhat essential to have rather than fussing with the taskbar or through a menu call up to turn it on/off. Right Ctrl and Alt I don't think should be removed from the lower right corner especially since Right Alt may be turned through the OS software into AltGr, a valuable modifier for some who don't primarily speak English.

Duplicating keys from the keyboard to the gamepad shouldn't have any effect since they are all under Fn. PageUp and PageDn are important to browse with and so is Minus and Plus for zooming(and considering the size of the screen). I disagree with removing other important keys like Ctrl to place them is the ideal option, and putting all six exclusively under function removes their appeal. Something to keep in mind too is most users would be unaware of these unlabeled assignments, unless they dig for their meaning, but they will be grateful once they use them for daily tasks.

Although the layout seems convoluted it really isn't. Much of the labeling isn't how it would be in the final design, and most of it is divided into distinctive "districts". Hardware controls for Volume and Brightness and Wireless and Bluetooth radios will likely be their standard keyboard graphics on laptops(fortunate for us WiFi is on Y and Bluetooth is on T too) rather than spelled out in letter form. It would look more immaculate than my drawing is capable of.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 29, 2016, 08:09:11 pm
Yeah, the tilde is on the top left on my keyboard as well - but as far as I know it isn't used much at all - so you can relocate it quite safely.
Regarding the underscore/long-hyphen confusion: D'oh! I feel stupid now.

So I propose creating new keys for + and -, so:
Fn + ~ = Escape.
Shift + + = = (as usual)
Shift + - = _ (as usual)
I don't know where to put them, though. Maybe to replace PgUp/PgDown?

Regarding BT/WiFi toggle, I don't think they're necessary because of Windows 10's new Notification Center.
http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Notifications_center_windows-10.jpg
They're grouped there, so they're essentially two button presses away at any time (unless you're running a full screen program, and then there are 3).
The same goes for brightness settings and the like, they can be delegated there.

Regarding the right control keys - as someone who's bilingual and currently has 3 languages installed, I can tell you right now that the right control keys are most there for symmetry and are mostly useless for a small keyboard. AltGr has its uses mainly in tilting the display and some obscure functions in editing software, so no huge loss there. If you want to dump keys - you can't ask for something better.

Regarding duplicating keys to the gamepad, I'm still not in favor. It just seems unnatural, but others may disagree, and I do think that if anything, the PgUp/Home and PgDown/End keys are best fitting there, so they might be the way to dispose them.

And if every key has double functionality, it will take double the time for a user to learn how to use it properly (best case scenario). Most users will just be freaked out.
Now, combine that with the fact that a regular keyboard is already familiar and it has almost no learning curve for the average user, and you have a problem - because you've taken something that should be a strength and made it an initial hurdle. Just saying.

EDIT:
http://i.imgur.com/MmUE0bg.png
Fn + Shift = Caps.
Fn + ~ = Escape.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 29, 2016, 09:39:33 pm
^Thanks again. :)

Here's a 13 keys per row base layout. No symbols under Fn this time. Really liking this one.

(http://i.imgur.com/qzLwadx.png)

Menu key is optional.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 29, 2016, 11:03:48 pm
Looks really, really good!
I hope GPD adopts this keyboard design if they're going for their planned design.
I have minor gripes about the bottom row, because I like my space bar extra long (5-6 keys long) - but they are just minor gripes. I'll get over it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 29, 2016, 11:37:55 pm
I don't think you can get away with not dual purposing some keys. As for looking cluttered, it dfepends on implementation, generally if done half decently , it looks fine.   

As for removing keys, this is something that I have been looking into.  The difficulty is, as soon as you say, ah that key isn't used anymore and then do some research, you find surprising results.  Like I think I was going to axe Break/Pause or Scroll Lock, then I found out they are still used in games/apps even today like call of duty.    Actually Pause/Break is used by a number of games to pause the game.    I don't think you save really much space removing them, and doubling up keys still needs to happen regardless, so I'd rather see them in than out.     The same for numpad keys, some games differentiate between normal number keys and numpad keys which are doubled on some keys like on a laptop.   For example Flight Sim uses both the number keys for certain things, and also has different functions assigned to the numpad keys.    It's easy to say, ah , lets just get rid of those keys as I first thought also, but when you look into it, they are best left in.

All the secondary labels on keys are in different colors, in mine  yellow and red.   So it's actually easy to see the noirmal key labels and differentiate the different groups.   Something that isn't visually obvious when people try to explain KB layouts here in text.


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 29, 2016, 11:48:35 pm
The Pause/Break key is also a general purpose key in the terminal to stop a program, so it has more than just a minor use - but that's beside the point.

Your point is, generally, correct. The default mappings for some games and software include those keys - but you have to realize that the default mappings are sometimes not an option, especially since you're using a device that gives you access to both a keyboard and gamepad at the same time.
Now, some of those general-use keys aren't in use anymore. I'd love to have a numpad because it makes typing numbers SO MUCH easier, but I decided against it to make the entire keyboard that much more compact and less cluttered. In general I'd love to have more buttons - but I just don't think dual purposing is the correct way to go about this, since it complicates things far more than it ever should.

I think I've said it two posts ago - most of the instances you ever need those buttons include key configurations, or are running in an emulator that allows it. The fraction of the games that don't fit into those categories is so slim, I don't think it's worth sacrificing usability for - although I'm sure some would disagree.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 29, 2016, 11:53:51 pm
In regards to cluttering, as I mentioned before, with decent color coding, it's not really an issue.  I appreciate it's hard to grasp that when we are describing layouts here in plain B/W text.  But in reality with good color coding and font sizing , it is easy to differentiate the key groups etc.   It's one I'd say, wait and see a mockup first before judging.

On a different note, a few days ago I asked Kendy if the sticks will be clickable, as the last render they have been showing for some time does not show L3 and R3 buttons.  Kendy did not know and was going to ask the GPD tech team, so will have to wait on a response on that

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 30, 2016, 12:06:49 pm
I agree with putting every key possible and doubling up where necessary.

Cluttering isn't really an issue - I use a Thai/English keyboard an EVERY key has 3 separate symbols on it - you don't even notice though.

If you wanted to make it less intimidating on a first-impression kind of basis then there's a neat trick you could do to hide the clutter when the unit id powered off.... if the keyboard is going to be backlit then you could have the additional function's labelled in a transparent colour as opposed to white; then they would only show up when the power is on.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on January 30, 2016, 02:00:00 pm
I agree with putting every key possible and doubling up where necessary.

Cluttering isn't really an issue - I use a Thai/English keyboard an EVERY key has 3 separate symbols on it - you don't even notice though.

If you wanted to make it less intimidating on a first-impression kind of basis then there's a neat trick you could do to hide the clutter when the unit id powered off.... if the keyboard is going to be backlit then you could have the additional function's labelled in a transparent colour as opposed to white; then they would only show up when the power is on.

Dude, I know. Currently using an Arabic-Hebrew-QWERTY keyboard:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f_GhGdEVnRE/TwRQz1HQLNI/AAAAAAAAAe0/wgrdeNVZMrI/s1600/kbd-crx2.gif
But I know for a fact this raises the difficulty of adapting the device, and for what? So people can have an Insert key they never use, and if they toggle it by accident it'll take them a minute just to locate it on the keyboard?
Not to mention, some layout will be broken by default as they will necessitate two buttons from different toggles (with Fn and without).

Keep it simple, keep it usable. Worst case scenario, use Joy2Key and map those buttons which you personally prefer to the gamepad - but I don't think sacrificing a far easier to operate device for it is worth it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: p0rt4bl3_add1ct on January 30, 2016, 08:46:59 pm
The first or the second one are amazing. And any possibility of using a x7 processor? It is inside the GT810 tablet from Acer.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on January 30, 2016, 09:12:22 pm
The first or the second one are amazing. And any possibility of using a x7 processor? It is inside the GT810 tablet from Acer.

Already confirmed that they are going with X5-z8500
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Segich on January 30, 2016, 10:01:50 pm
I hope that the windows system will be x64?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 30, 2016, 11:08:03 pm
I hope that the windows system will be x64?
Yes it will. :)
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on January 30, 2016, 11:14:08 pm
As long as the UEFI is 64 bit, lots of these windows tabs had 32 bit UEFI with a 64 bit processor, end result was 32 bit OS
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 30, 2016, 11:20:07 pm
^Fingers crossed for 64-bit.

Anyways, here's a revision of the unofficial layout. Kept it relatively simple.

Basic Layout:
http://i.imgur.com/qU1n9kL.png
(http://i.imgur.com/qU1n9kL.png)

With Fn enabled:
http://i.imgur.com/x77Q0LY.png
With Numeric Keypad:
http://i.imgur.com/jreBNYJ.png
***switch between images to note differences.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: fsk on January 31, 2016, 06:27:02 am
Did you think about making it dual-boot Android and Windows?

It seems neat, but having just bought a GPD XD, I don't see the value in getting a 2nd handheld so soon.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on January 31, 2016, 06:44:41 am
Did you think about making it dual-boot Android and Windows?

Yea they're considering it because enough of us kicked up a fuss. :)
I'm certainly hoping they do make it dual boot
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kit0072 on January 31, 2016, 05:24:17 pm
(http://upload.lsforum.net/users/public/r1904514539730004f47.jpeg)
(http://upload.lsforum.net/users/public/v1867114539730720a47.jpeg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: BlazingSoul on January 31, 2016, 05:45:03 pm
(http://upload.lsforum.net/users/public/r1904514539730004f47.jpeg)
(http://upload.lsforum.net/users/public/v1867114539730720a47.jpeg)


Does it have R3/L3 and is it fully 64 bit (with 64 bit UEFI/BIOS)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on January 31, 2016, 05:59:22 pm
where is the USB 3.0 full size port?
the MicroHDMI looks like a USB port
the USB Type-C port looks as a miniHDMI port.

and the keyboard... well... no comments...

please, kendy or kit, can you confirm some specs?
USB 3.0 port
USB Type-C port
L3 and R3 buttons are included on the analog sticks?
There is a switch for enable-disable the keyboard?
there is a switch for enable mouse emulation within sticks?
and yes, so important. This device come with a UEFI 32 or 64 bits?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on January 31, 2016, 06:05:52 pm
That's looking absolutely gorgeous! But yeah I'm wondering about the ports as well and the L3/R3 situation.
Also, shouldn't some of the more important buttons be moved to the space between the sticks?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on January 31, 2016, 06:12:11 pm
I don't like the placement of analogs. It's pretty muchos like in old pandora, and i never got used to use analogs in the pandora.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on January 31, 2016, 06:57:27 pm
no horizontal placement of analogos stick with the button and dpad,please make a little bit down like regular gamepad controller.
i was reading about the UEFI and atom cherry trail has 64bit uefi,can have both 32/64bit, but its unto the OEM.
others wise look sweet
i want all the specifications
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on January 31, 2016, 07:03:20 pm
The ports are definitely labelled incorrectly. The Micro hdmi is not a micro hdmi, the one called USB Type C is a micro hdmi.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on January 31, 2016, 07:08:44 pm
Perfect design! Good placement of the analog sticks. Beside a few minor tweaks, I hope this will be the final design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on January 31, 2016, 07:42:09 pm
Yeah I really like the design, too. Though not huge on the thumbsticks but oh well.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on January 31, 2016, 09:02:40 pm
Really like the design!  Looks fine to me.  Echoing some of the questions from others:

UEFI 32 or 64bit?
L3 and R3 buttons are on the analog sticks themselves?
Dual Channel RAM?
What are the final specs?

Also when can I buy it? :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Segich on January 31, 2016, 10:17:21 pm
Can I play GTA V; Fallout 4; The Wither 2, 3; Far Cry 3, 4; Assassin's Creed 2-4; Metro; CoD 1-7 and etc games on this console?)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 31, 2016, 10:17:34 pm
Perfect design and control layout.

Can we see a top down view of the controls and layout.   This was something asked for last time.

Also, as others mentioned, can you confirm the L3 and R3 are now via clickable joy sticks?

Can someone translate the chinese text?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on January 31, 2016, 10:27:09 pm
Can I play GTA V; Fallout 4; The Wither 2, 3; Far Cry 3, 4; Assassin's Creed 2-4; Metro; CoD 1-7 and etc games on this console?)
You setting your expectations a bit high for this little device... It's a portable console, not a $5000 gaming PC
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on January 31, 2016, 11:01:11 pm
I think the ")" at the end was supposed to be a smiley.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on January 31, 2016, 11:05:56 pm
Looks like those Sticks are clickable for L3 R3.

Do you see in the mockup ad where it points to the sticks and says ALPS. ALPS is a company that make those sticks.  Their website shows it has 4 (stick returnable) options. Two are with clickable stick functions .  I'm guessing GPD have chosen the clickable stick option. 

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html

Seeing since the sticks are the same depth (clickable or not) , I'd say they are using clickable sticks, thus why in the last 4 times they showed this design there has never been L3 or R3 buttons. Because the sticks are clickable
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on January 31, 2016, 11:11:37 pm
Looks okay but render needs Start and Select buttons. Keys will be ultra small since GPD basically just zapped an entire PC keyboard with a shrink ray and transplanted it. This means fifteen tiny keys per row(but thankfully rows are staggered which helps) in a traditional layout.  ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on January 31, 2016, 11:41:20 pm
It looks pretty nice to me.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 01, 2016, 03:15:30 am
Only just noticed now, but...where are the speakers?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 01, 2016, 04:12:31 am
Only just noticed now, but...where are the speakers?

In the previous render images (white case), they showed the front of the device.  The speakers are at the front
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kit0072 on February 01, 2016, 07:47:11 am
R3 and L3 in to keyborad

(http://upload.lsforum.net/users/public/q4648114543125397b47.jpeg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on February 01, 2016, 07:50:18 am
The newest render images look great. I wish those sticks were clickable, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I really don't think that we need arrow keys on that keyboard, though. We have a DPAD for that, haven't we?
Also, the Home and Back buttons on the lower right makes me think that the GPD team is seriously considering dualboot with Android, which will be awesome for many. Although I think that Back should be bound to Escape and Home - to the Windows key, would make sense.

All in all pretty great.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 01, 2016, 08:06:34 am
It's looking good, but it needs a few tweeks

First of all , brightness controls , where are they?

Where's the indicator LEDs for Caps on, mouse mode on, etc etc?

Whats the switch in the middle , just above the Keyboard? mouse mode on/off?

What's the key to the right of the power button?

If you go with only one function key, then you will need to make it function lock. Otherwise with only one function key on the left side, you will not be able to stretch your right thumb across to click on F1-6.

There's also a lot of keys(or doubled up key labels) missing like from memory: Pgup, Pgdwn, Home,  End etc. Will have to check on my PC keyboard when I get back on it.


The keys to the right of the keyboard:     

1) move the volume and (missing) brightness controls to the sides of the device.

2)  L3 and R3 , ALPS make clickable sticks , why not use them? Failing this, why not move L3 and R3 to a position that is between the stick and buttons/dpad - in the empty space in the top middle of the control ovals. R3 could also then double as a fifth action button for some fighters

3)  Move the other 6 keys to the empty space between the sticks

This should remove the keys to the right and allow you to centre the main keyboard with some space each side of it. or put some space between keys or increase key size
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Segich on February 01, 2016, 08:21:35 am
Can I play GTA V; Fallout 4; The Wither 2, 3; Far Cry 3, 4; Assassin's Creed 2-4; Metro; CoD 1-7 and etc games on this console?)
You setting your expectations a bit high for this little device... It's a portable console, not a $5000 gaming PC
But with low graphics settings can I play these games?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: NTMBK on February 01, 2016, 09:26:16 am
Can I play GTA V; Fallout 4; The Wither 2, 3; Far Cry 3, 4; Assassin's Creed 2-4; Metro; CoD 1-7 and etc games on this console?)
You setting your expectations a bit high for this little device... It's a portable console, not a $5000 gaming PC
But with low graphics settings can I play these games?

Short answer, no. Long answer... maybe a few of them (like the older CoDs) will run alright. But the newer games like Witcher 3 will be unplayably slow.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 01, 2016, 10:07:57 am
Thanks so much for the enthusiastic person kit share us the preliminary renders.these is Chinese text.we are still working for the English version.once it is finished,i will share with you all!!And  about the : UEFI 32 or 64bit?I thinks this function is not necessary for a handheld console.cause the handheld console itself support by BIOS setting  to install system through U disk.please don't worry.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 01, 2016, 10:28:27 am
Thanks so much for the enthusiastic person kit share us the preliminary renders.these is Chinese text.we are still working for the English version.once it is finished,i will share with you all!!And  about the : UEFI 32 or 64bit?I thinks this function is not necessary for a handheld console.cause the handheld console itself support by BIOS setting  to install system through U disk.please don't worry.

uefi64bit is basic, most for gaming device. please, consider this.
Uefi32bit limit so much the functionality of the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 01, 2016, 10:35:04 am
Hey... what about L3 and R3?
hope you are not thinking on place them where are on the render.

L3 and R3 must be on the stick (clickable sticks) or separated buttons near the sticks (similar to GPD-XD)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 01, 2016, 11:25:15 am
Yes I agree with Deen0x
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: PunchOut on February 01, 2016, 12:18:17 pm
I think you should move L3 and R3. The way it is right now will be unplayable !!
Also, I think you should sell/bundle a cover for the keyboard. A plastic case to cover the keyboard.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY !! PLEASE SUPPORT XINPUT !!! No direct input !! XINPUT !!!
Otherwise, the design looks great !!

I think a good addition would be an optical mouse, like the Viliv N5

(http://www.pocketables.com/images/old/6a00d83451c9ec69e201348501e26a970c-800wi.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 01, 2016, 01:11:57 pm
Thanks so much for the enthusiastic person kit share us the preliminary renders.these is Chinese text.we are still working for the English version.once it is finished,i will share with you all!!And  about the : UEFI 32 or 64bit?I thinks this function is not necessary for a handheld console.cause the handheld console itself support by BIOS setting  to install system through U disk.please don't worry.
I sent Kelvin Zhang a personal message about this render. I measured and even without the two column of keys GPD has put on the right side, and the community has repeatedly insisted not happen, each individual key will be barely adequate in size(unless we are jokingly marketing this to toddlers).   

With the top row as the example from the Escape key to Backspace, we'd have 15 total individual keys. Unverified dimensions put the total length of the device to 16cm with 1cm allotted from either side for holding comfort(since we cannot have keys on the edges we'd need this buffer zone). This brings the working area to about 140mm which, allowing each key a necessary millimeter between one another, reduces it further to 126mm.

Portion this 126mm out to over 15 keys(backspace key is 1.5) and you generously receive about 8mm per Lilliputian key. Now introduce that special offshoot two columns for hardware controls and power, and add the gap between the main keyboard and it, and be prepared to sharpen some fingernails in order to type on this. If the measurements are accurate, we are talking tiny keys.

While the appearance is tidy in the excitable render, we still have to use the thing. At the end of the day and in the very least though, I urge GPD to please rearrange that dual column conglomeration to the empty void between the joysticks. Start and Select and L3 and R3 where I show them as a beginning: (http://i.imgur.com/qU1n9kL.png)

Android Home and Back could be abutted next to the centered Power button. Positioned to how "Vol+" and "Function" buttons are on the GPD XD.  ;)   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 01, 2016, 01:21:54 pm
I think a good addition would be an optical mouse, like the Viliv N5

(http://www.pocketables.com/images/old/6a00d83451c9ec69e201348501e26a970c-800wi.jpg)

what a great component! i really like this.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: gxd on February 01, 2016, 02:00:20 pm
The DPAD in GPD WIN is the same as the one in GPD XD?
If possible, please consider using the GPD Q9 DPAD or at least a DPAD that is bigger than the GPD XD DPAD.
I own a GPD XD and my only complaint is the size of the DPAD, I think the ideal size would be the size of a PSP DPAD.

Thanks for the attention.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 01, 2016, 02:03:07 pm
The DPAD in GPD WIN is the same as the one in GPD XD?
If possible, please consider using the GPD Q9 DPAD or at least a DPAD that is bigger than the GPD XD DPAD.
I own a GPD XD and my only complaint is the size of the DPAD, I think the ideal size would be the size of a PSP DPAD.

Thanks for the attention.

+1

GPD-Q9 is the best DPAD i ever used in any android device, and will be a good feature if GPD can include on this new device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: gxd on February 01, 2016, 02:29:21 pm

+1

GPD-Q9 is the best DPAD i ever used in any android device, and will be a good feature if GPD can include on this new device.

Its good to know that I am not the only one to recognize the DPAD issue in GPD XD.
I also think that the GPD Q9 DPAD is perfect, but I will be satisfied if they can revise the DPAD and use a bigger/better DPAD.

Since the GPD XD DPAD was a letdown for me, I will skip the GPD WIN if they dont revise the DPAD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 01, 2016, 03:00:33 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3rRsOfk.png)

I know that you guys are aiming to make it cheaper so I assume putting all of those keys in a row like that is to cut cost but damn!  Come on.

I just did a quick mspaint cut and paste job to make some sense out of it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 01, 2016, 03:07:11 pm
More news for GPD win in Softpedia.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/portable-windows-10-gaming-console-planned-here-s-the-first-design-499487.shtml/
So make right
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on February 01, 2016, 03:07:35 pm


R3 and L3 in to keyborad

This keyboard reminds me of the Rii Mini Bluetooth keyboard
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 01, 2016, 03:27:10 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3rRsOfk.png)

I know that you guys are aiming to make it cheaper so I assume putting all of those keys in a row like that is to cut cost but damn!  Come on.

I just did a quick mspaint cut and paste job to make some sense out of it.

That layout is really great. The power button should really be placed at the top since an accidental press would cause the device to go to standby/sleep.

But some minor tweaks to your layout:
- The R3, L3 should be integrated in the clickable analog sticks.
- Brightness +/- buttons
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 01, 2016, 03:41:35 pm
The power button should really be placed at the top since an accidental press would cause the device to go to standby/sleep.
From the looks of the render the Power button appears recessed, but yes I agree that side set of keys has to move.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 01, 2016, 03:52:54 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/3rRsOfk.png)

I know that you guys are aiming to make it cheaper so I assume putting all of those keys in a row like that is to cut cost but damn!  Come on.

I just did a quick mspaint cut and paste job to make some sense out of it.

That layout is really great. The power button should really be placed at the top since an accidental press would cause the device to go to standby/sleep.

But some minor tweaks to your layout:
- The R3, L3 should be integrated in the clickable analog sticks.
- Brightness +/- buttons

I only moved stuff around very quickly in MSpaint.  I am assuming that GPD doesn't want to spend the money on analog sticks that are clickable, so I was just moving them somewhere that made sense.

Start > Run > powercfg.cpl will get you to control brightness easy enough.  I guess I don't see myself having to adjust brightness often enough for me to worry about a dedicated button, but I can see it being useful.

I realize that GPD needs to keeps costs down and I'm sure the entire row of keys is the cheaper option for them, but they really need to adjust some stuff so it doesn't look so completely cluttered.

Also I think arrow keys on the keyboard is fine because if the game-buttons wind up being x-input, they can be cursor keys as well.

Again, GPD please consider reorganizing the keys on the right side and shifting the keyboard so that it's centered.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Verdugo on February 01, 2016, 04:00:25 pm
L3 and R3 are horribly placed! Fix that!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Canguy247 on February 01, 2016, 04:06:04 pm
Ahhh...the good old "the keyboard must be like this or that or the other thing because everyone is an expert".

I have owned a few handhelds this size and used them all day long and I can say that people are too worried for nothing. This keyboard is not for writing novels...light coding at most. They may need a bit more space between keys but the layout looks awesome. Keep in mind this keyboard will always be a compromise between usage cases in order to maximize the market appeal.

Have a look at the following devices...
Zaurus SL-C1000 / 3000/ 3100 / 3200 (I had the 1000): Awesome keyboard. Good click feedback with very small push distance.
Pandora (I had the preorder unit): awefull layout optimized for left-handers and had a massive throw with marginal clicky feedback. Very tiring to type on.

Palm pre / pre3 (I had both): awesome and very usable keyboard which was insanely tiny.

Almost any blackberry...I never had one but their keyboards are universally loved by their users (although their usage case is different).

The bottom line is that user input is great, but calm down. It will likely never be perfect for everyone, but it looks like it will be very good for nearly everyone.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 01, 2016, 04:24:30 pm
Ahhh...the good old "the keyboard must be like this or that or the other thing because everyone is an expert".

I have owned a few handhelds this size and used them all day long and I can say that people are too worried for nothing. This keyboard is not for writing novels...light coding at most. They may need a bit more space between keys but the layout looks awesome. Keep in mind this keyboard will always be a compromise between usage cases in order to maximize the market appeal.

Have a look at the following devices...
Zaurus SL-C1000 / 3000/ 3100 / 3200 (I had the 1000): Awesome keyboard. Good click feedback with very small push distance.
Pandora (I had the preorder unit): awefull layout optimized for left-handers and had a massive throw with marginal clicky feedback. Very tiring to type on.

Palm pre / pre3 (I had both): awesome and very usable keyboard which was insanely tiny.

Almost any blackberry...I never had one but their keyboards are universally loved by their users (although their usage case is different).

The bottom line is that user input is great, but calm down. It will likely never be perfect for everyone, but it looks like it will be very good for nearly everyone.
Depends on how you define good for nearly everyone but you're right, sometimes people declare an expertise for all on the matter when they clearly don't.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on February 01, 2016, 04:36:07 pm
Don't screw this up for me GPD!!!!!!!!!

Looks great, looking forward to the release, a bit anxious about buying into the first batch, even though I really want to, its just the first GPD XD had some issues there but hoping you learned from your mistakes and you TEST TEST TEST


AND FOR GOD SAKE BRING OUT A WHITE ONE
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 01, 2016, 04:44:46 pm
Keyboard is NOT looking good GPD. Every button on the right side needs to be relocated to in between the sticks except the L3 and R3 buttons. Those need to be in the sticks or at least somewhere near them. Their current placement is awful. Also, why do we need arrow keys when we have a d-pad? Can't you just assign the dpad to function as both dpad and arrows? Is taking up space being down there.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on February 01, 2016, 05:06:11 pm
I think all those controls buttons on the side should be made into a bar like the PSP, merged with that switch (or the switch moved to the side of the device) passing under the analogs sticks and power moved completely, preferably in the middle where it can't be accidentally pushed.

[DPAD]......[ANALOG]..[POWER]..[ANALOG]......[ABXY]
[HOME][BACK][L3][START][SELECT][R3][V+][V-]
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 01, 2016, 05:13:51 pm
Btw, what's the switch for anyway?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 01, 2016, 05:16:01 pm
I don't mind the current keyboard layout except for the l3 and r3 buttons which definitely need to be nearer to the analogs.
Brightness in windows can be adjusted from a side menu on the screen that you can access by swiping from the right.

Btw, what's the switch for anyway?
Swap to mouselook for the analog I think.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: D1PTAR on February 01, 2016, 05:17:34 pm
Love the idea of a windows gaming handheld, I'm also a GPD XD user! Have to say though I would happily trade better analogue stick and button placement for a keyboard every day of the week. People can always connect bluetooth keyboards/ mice if they wish but if the gamepad controls suffer because of a blackberry style keyboard I feel this undermines the whole point of the device. Personally I really don't think it's worth the trade off. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 01, 2016, 08:29:18 pm
Btw, what's the switch for anyway?
Swap to mouselook for the analog I think.

i think is the switch for enable/disable the keyboard (for avoiding accidental pressing keys when playing with gaming controls)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 01, 2016, 08:36:40 pm
Ahhh...the good old "the keyboard must be like this or that or the other thing because everyone is an expert".

I have owned a few handhelds this size and used them all day long and I can say that people are too worried for nothing. This keyboard is not for writing novels...light coding at most. They may need a bit more space between keys but the layout looks awesome. Keep in mind this keyboard will always be a compromise between usage cases in order to maximize the market appeal.

Have a look at the following devices...
Zaurus SL-C1000 / 3000/ 3100 / 3200 (I had the 1000): Awesome keyboard. Good click feedback with very small push distance.
Pandora (I had the preorder unit): awefull layout optimized for left-handers and had a massive throw with marginal clicky feedback. Very tiring to type on.

Palm pre / pre3 (I had both): awesome and very usable keyboard which was insanely tiny.

Almost any blackberry...I never had one but their keyboards are universally loved by their users (although their usage case is different).

The bottom line is that user input is great, but calm down. It will likely never be perfect for everyone, but it looks like it will be very good for nearly everyone.

Not sure if you're replying to me or a collective, in any event, I should clarify that I'll still be okay with the device if it ships like originally pictured (which it most likely will).  And I'll still (most likely) criticize that aspect of it.

It's just opinions.

i think is the switch for enable/disable the keyboard (for avoiding accidental pressing keys when playing with gaming controls)

Most likely this is the case, as the keys are right to the edge.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 01:30:00 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on February 02, 2016, 02:11:42 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...
Dpad and buttons position look very unconfortable to me (I've big hands)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 02, 2016, 03:18:25 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...

Me too.  I really like it!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Canguy247 on February 02, 2016, 03:37:22 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...

Me too.  I really like it!

VERY tiny keyboard. This would limit the target market a lot!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 02, 2016, 03:48:35 am
Having the buttons and dpad directly below the sticks without an offset can be pretty uncomfortable, so I'm not a fan of that design. The keyboard with the extremely tiny and likely unusable (there's no spacing) keys makes me like it even less. Arrow keys still need to go in my opinion since we have a dpad.
Also, why are there cat, eel, and FAP buttons?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 02, 2016, 04:18:31 am
VERY tiny keyboard. This would limit the target market a lot!

I see myself holding it with my hands, and using my thumbs to type on the keyboard.  I like the smaller design, as there will be less travel between keys -- it will keep my thumbs extended while typing.  It may not be everyone's preference, but I like it! :-)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 02, 2016, 04:22:54 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...

Like THE WINNER
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 06:41:09 am
Also, why are there cat, eel, and FAP buttons?

these keys are some kind of internal joke on the forum.

... but the FAP button is totally needed in my opinion. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 06:58:12 am
of course the design is a concept. he simply take the original render and "paint" it moving some elements, but the concept is this:
Moving the original DPAD and buttons a little bit bottom from original concept, and put the analog sticks over DPAD and Buttons at the same distance to the border, using the central space for adding the keyboard.
The space between sticks are the ideal location for extended button bar (the original is on the right side, a very weird position in my opinion)
Adding some "switches" for changing behaviors of the device:
Switch for DInput / XInput modes
Switch for enable / disable the keyboard (and avoid accidental keyboard press)
Switch for enable / disable mouse mode (the same that come in many gamepads that allow to use a mouse pointer with the right stick)

There are few extra buttons (where originally was L3 and R3). One of them can be the HOME button of X360 controller (this is the "service" button in steam)

The last button may be the mapper (in windows, may be configurable, for launching some auxiliar app. in android may be the classic on screen mapper)

and cat/eel buttons... welll... who know's what he is really thinking when adding these buttons? XD

Well, there is another variant...

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PYEos3lkEaU/VrBWCPuxTiI/AAAAAAAAXmg/0gTFFflUsHo/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v3.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 02, 2016, 07:32:51 am
(http://i.imgur.com/3rRsOfk.png)

I know that you guys are aiming to make it cheaper so I assume putting all of those keys in a row like that is to cut cost but damn!  Come on.

I just did a quick mspaint cut and paste job to make some sense out of it.

Yes, something to this effect, is a start.   Clickable sticks would be best, if this isn't possible, then L3 and R3 in the middle top of the controll ovals would be the best position for them (for example , between the Y button and the top of the right stick).  R3 Could then double as a fifth game button. But GPD should aim for clickable sticks.   

Adding spacing between the keys should also be done.

I would also move volume and brightness to the sides or the front.

I'd also double up PgUp, PgDn, Home and End on the Arrow keys accessed by the function key.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 02, 2016, 11:43:04 am
A guy from another forum (Chipan) posted their suggestion based on the last render from Kit, and i modified a little bit (adding L3/R3,etc):


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ktQkOhUeZBc/VrAFpqOWlxI/AAAAAAAAXl8/5pgHu7OTnIs/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v2.jpg)

I like this version...

Having the dpad and action buttons down low and at the edge seems horrible. Looks like the position of the 3ds d-pad which is a bit uncomfortable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 02, 2016, 11:55:07 am
Analogs should probably be on the inside and controls horizontally aligned.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 02, 2016, 02:34:31 pm
Not to derail discussions of eel and cat keys, or how much discomfort we can instill into the Win's control scheme, but here is how I'd arrange things between the joysticks.

Note: Func and Mapr are the "Function" and "Gamepad Mapper" keys as found on the XD. Home and Back are Android equivalents if dual-boot. Also, Dpad befittingly serves as Up, Down, Left, and Right.

Basic Layout:
http://i.imgur.com/X6mk7cy.png
(http://i.imgur.com/X6mk7cy.png)

With Fn and backlight:
http://i.imgur.com/pZSRwRi.png
With optional Numeric pad:
http://i.imgur.com/DQrhbeR.png
***switch between images to see differences.

I don't expect anything from this though. GPD probably won't change anything either, and that two column of side keys is here to stay(hunting for Select and Start while playing could be its own mini-game). Instead a proposal for 9.8 millimeter keys we could comfortably type on(same length as volume buttons on XD), we'll have a full tiny cellphone keyboard stretched in a cramping and abrupt edge to edge configuration.

At least we can say it will have a keyboard, be assuredly now warm to the touch, and it will be cheap.  ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 03:09:47 pm
Comparing the 3DS-XL, that prove their layout is good for play with DPAD and Sticks, the proposal is very similar, and i think is better than horizontal layout

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Raao-Uhq4eo/VrDE1c9bKJI/AAAAAAAAXmw/cyA3lLHXB-8/s800-Ic42/GPD-WIN_3DSXL.jpg)

this layout keep the game priority over the keyboard, that i remember is a secondary element on a gaming device.

what suppose this layout? a little bit thin keyboard, but will be usable in the same way that if this keyboard is few centimeters biggest. is a micro-keyboard, and in any case you will use with your thumbs, not with all your fingers as a standard keyboard.

The concept of the layout is right. main keyboards are placed on right places.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PYEos3lkEaU/VrBWCPuxTiI/AAAAAAAAXmg/0gTFFflUsHo/s800-Ic42/Chipan%252520v3.jpg)

center button is HOME button (steam button)
Select and Start are on the correct places, Select to the left, Start to the right
Extra buttons for operating system (and for DualOS, thinking on Android) are righgt placed too, on the top button bar.

This design forgot the C and Z buttons, for 3x2 fighting games layout , but is a good design based on current GPD-XD / Nintendo 3DS-XL, and is usable and more comfortable than Pandora's Layout, because gaming controls are on the borders (not on the center) and keyboard can be accessed with both thumbs without problems.

The only thing i miss is clickable sticks buttons, but there are L3 and R3 in similar situation than GPD-XD, then no problem
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 02, 2016, 03:12:33 pm
The Dpad placement on the 3DS is crap though so it's not really a good example.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 03:14:27 pm
well, this is an opinion, and is right, but there is a lot of people that found this DPAD ok for playing.
i think is ok. a little bit biggest may be, but is ok in general speaking.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: chipan on February 02, 2016, 04:03:22 pm
Hi Deen0X and hi everybody. I'm new here. I came because I was following the reports about this new console/pc that Deen0X were giving on other forums; and I think a layout with analogs on sides and keyboard on center would be better than the layout of original render.

I posted a layout on other forum and deen0x modified It (improved It) and posted It here. I like how It looks and I think It would be a good thing to give my support to his ideas. Anyways, GPD staff take this forums in consideration when they desing their products, so I think giving my support here would be more useful than giving my support on other forums.

In my oppinion, analog sticks on center are not confortable or easy to use; that was one of the main reasons I've disliked pandora since the beginning of the project; and I don't want see the same mistake made twice  (or three times If we count pandora pyra  ;D ).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 02, 2016, 04:42:08 pm
Moving the dpad and buttons down pretty much relegates them to occasional use. That's okay for 3D games but having them so low will just cramp up the thumbs and make the device semi-useless for 2D gaming
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 04:49:43 pm
but moving the analogs to the center, will be semi-useless for normal sticks gaming (most windows games).

I agree that is most comfortable on GPD-XD the DPAD position, but moving to the border, similar to 3DSXL still is fine for normal retro-gaming (fighting games in my case)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: D1PTAR on February 02, 2016, 05:26:13 pm
Did a quick mock-up of my ideal layout.

(http://s21.postimg.org/f8z0cim3n/GPD_WIN.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f8z0cim3n/)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 02, 2016, 06:06:59 pm
I think it's kind of funny people are putting so much effort into keyboard/layout mockups...  has there been any indication that GPD are actually taking these into consideration?  I know they are looking at what people want in terms of basic features/specs, but actually designing the thing?....
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 02, 2016, 07:07:21 pm
And here we go again.... Keyboard vs no-keyboard.

The guys who want no keyboard should spam the gpd-xd2 thread really. This discussion is beginning to get on my nerves.

GPD already pointed out that this device will have a keyboard, so GPD-WIN without keyboard is unimaginable.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 02, 2016, 07:13:51 pm
I think it's kind of funny people are putting so much effort into keyboard/layout mockups...  has there been any indication that GPD are actually taking these into consideration?  I know they are looking at what people want in terms of basic features/specs, but actually designing the thing?....

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the initial render shown to us has been finalized and is already in production.  They can always make a GPDWin2 if it's a success.  But I think since they got some press from PCworld, they are far more interested in speed than paying any attention to comments on this forum.

Still it's fun to spend time on mock-ups while we are waiting on news.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 02, 2016, 07:29:10 pm
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the initial render shown to us has been finalized and is already in production.  They can always make a GPDWin2 if it's a success.  But I think since they got some press from PCworld, they are far more interested in speed than paying any attention to comments on this forum.

Still it's fun to spend time on mock-ups while we are waiting on news.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.  And yeah, fun to speculate, but not worth being so adamant about whether or not it should or should not have function keys or whatever, considering it's likely already finalized.  :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 02, 2016, 07:38:23 pm
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the initial render shown to us has been finalized and is already in production.  They can always make a GPDWin2 if it's a success.  But I think since they got some press from PCworld, they are far more interested in speed than paying any attention to comments on this forum.

Still it's fun to spend time on mock-ups while we are waiting on news.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.  And yeah, fun to speculate, but not worth being so adamant about whether or not it should or should not have function keys or whatever, considering it's likely already finalized.  :)

Anytime you allow a dialogue to happen regarding ... well anything, to a bunch of people not really experts in the area, two interesting psychological conditions happen:

Parkinson's law of triviality
Dunning?Kruger effect

They are both interesting to read and they apply here.  Still, knowing this, I continue to have fun with the process.

Edit: Although I do want to add that 2GB+2GB ram for dual channel ram is actually extremely important for feeding the gpu.  Huge perf boost.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 02, 2016, 07:45:51 pm
I am not that worried about the function keys. It's the L3/R3 buttons placement which is terrible. I can live with the original render with adjusted L3/R3 buttons.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 02, 2016, 07:48:16 pm

Anytime you allow a dialogue to happen regarding ... well anything, to a bunch of people not really experts in the area, two interesting psychological conditions happen:

Parkinson's law of triviality
Dunning?Kruger effect

They are both interesting to read and they apply here.  Still, knowing this, I continue to have fun with the process.

Edit: Although I do want to add that 2GB+2GB ram for dual channel ram is actually extremely important for feeding the gpu.  Huge perf boost.

Agreed about dual-channel RAM.  And yeah talking about what specs we'd like to see makes much more sense to me (and is probably more likely to be taken to heart by GPD) than keyboard/controller layout.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 02, 2016, 07:55:27 pm
I think it's kind of funny people are putting so much effort into keyboard/layout mockups...  has there been any indication that GPD are actually taking these into consideration?  I know they are looking at what people want in terms of basic features/specs, but actually designing the thing?....
No such indication GPD has taken any feedback serious beyond the superficial aspects like storage and RAM. In private PM's encouraged responses made it appear to be so. Apparently, if that tragic beauty of a render is anything to go by, it wasn't, and nothing was heard. It's almost as if they have zero idea what Start and Select or L3 and R3 are.

Some of us were actually going to get real work done on the Win being that this will be the first real pocketable Windows 10 laptop. That was my reason for working hard on striving for the best layout possible in the allowed space. I considered the keyboard an essential part not only for typing while standing but also when placed on a desk, as some would do, in business and academia.

Many people with divergent needs though seem determined to relegate a full keyboard to the middle, as an afterthought. Getting it out of the way of the game controls, forcing it to be as small as possible and thus awkward. Obviously it's not a priority and they view the GPD Win as another toy. That's fine and all for that mindset, but as I said some customers like myself had much greater plans for this ultraportable. An efficient extension of their computer at home.

I'll still buy it(probably) but I'll wince every time I look at it for what could have been and wasn't. Maybe the GPD Win2 will be more grown up.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 07:58:38 pm
And here we go again.... Keyboard vs no-keyboard.

The guys who want no keyboard should spam the gpd-xd2 thread really. This discussion is beginning to get on my nerves.

GPD already pointed out that this device will have a keyboard, so GPD-WIN without keyboard is unimaginable.

well, i don?t see why people cannot post here their opinions.

i'm posting with some suggestions about keyboard (with the last image), even when people know that i don?t like the keyboard (for me is something absolutely unnecesary on the device, but i try to post constructivley.

maybe others users want to post here their opinions, and if they are posting with respect, i don?t see any problem with this.

and yes, i think GPD may consider on releasing two GPD-Win: GPD-WinK (keyboard) and GPD-WinG (Gamepad). why not? the machine is the same, and i don?t see problems on releasing two flavors of the same machine. The No-Keyboard discussion i think is so interesting really.

... and after all, GPD will do what they want to do. what we can discuss here really will not produce effects on their manufacturing process.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 02, 2016, 08:47:33 pm
Of course everyone can just say what they want.
And here we go again.... Keyboard vs no-keyboard.

The guys who want no keyboard should spam the gpd-xd2 thread really. This discussion is beginning to get on my nerves.

GPD already pointed out that this device will have a keyboard, so GPD-WIN without keyboard is unimaginable.
... and after all, GPD will do what they want to do. what we can discuss here really will not produce effects on their manufacturing process.

That is the exact reason why I say spamming the thread with "no keyboard.. no keyboard" is just pointless. They have made the decision to include the keyboard. Period.

I know some of you guys want to ditch the keyboard forever, but the reason it caught the attention of liliputing, cnx software etc. , is that it will have a hw keyboard. It looks like they will make more money with the keyboard included. There are just tons of people waiting for a modern UMPC, something which has not been around for 5 years.

In the last years, many Android based devices have been released which resemble the UMPC, but only for gaming.

This device is an all purpose handheld meant for people who want to do mobile computing along with light gaming.

This way they are targeting a much broader audience than just gamers who want to hack with emulators and such.

Some people think they can influence GPD in ditching the keyboard, but I think that is pointless.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 02, 2016, 08:56:23 pm
I think it's kind of funny people are putting so much effort into keyboard/layout mockups...  has there been any indication that GPD are actually taking these into consideration?  I know they are looking at what people want in terms of basic features/specs, but actually designing the thing?....
No such indication GPD has taken any feedback serious beyond the superficial aspects like storage and RAM. In private PM's encouraged responses made it appear to be so. Apparently, if that tragic beauty of a render is anything to go by, it wasn't, and nothing was heard. It's almost as if they have zero idea what Start and Select or L3 and R3 are.

Some of us were actually going to get real work done on the Win being that this will be the first real pocketable Windows 10 laptop. That was my reason for working hard on striving for the best layout possible in the allowed space. I considered the keyboard an essential part not only for typing while standing but also when placed on a desk, as some would do, in business and academia.

Many people with divergent needs though seem determined to relegate a full keyboard to the middle, as an afterthought. Getting it out of the way of the game controls, forcing it to be as small as possible and thus awkward. Obviously it's not a priority and they view the GPD Win as another toy. That's fine and all for that mindset, but as I said some customers like myself had much greater plans for this ultraportable. An efficient extension of their computer at home.

I'll still buy it(probably) but I'll wince every time I look at it for what could have been and wasn't. Maybe the GPD Win2 will be more grown up.

I fully agree with you. This thing will be able to replace your laptop. A pocket sized mobile computer which can run full x86  applications on the go and which can be plugged into an hdmi screen for an extended desktop experience.

The gamepad controls are just a nice addition but I think the unique selling point is that this is a pocket sized x86 laptop.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 09:07:36 pm
as my point of view, originally this device will be released as gaming device. GPD did not pretend to produce an all-porupouse device (almost, as original concept).

We are some guys that are inquiring to GPD for a x86 based device from a long time ago, something for playing windows games (gamepad based) and with this in mind i see this device until now.

Yes, GPD will release the device with keyboard, ok, but i consider so important to comment about the other choices for a posterior device, and if we don?t comment this, may GPD get a wrong idea that there is no interest on some different, and is not the case.

For this reason i think is important to comment all alternatives (that basically are two: with keyboard and with gamepad alone)

Will be so useful if Kendy comment something about this point, to know if GPD take note about a big part of users that want another kind of device (without keyboard), and they may consider on produce something like this.

look, there is another different point of view. Some users wants a micro-notebook where the gamepad is an addition, but not the main element of the device.

with this, i mean that there are almost two big segments for this device, and GPD must take this on consideration.

Most recognized webs point their attention to this device not because their keyboard. the real reason is this is the first portable gaming device that mount a x86 SoC, or is the same, is the first portable gaming device with Windows (without considering Razer Edge Pro and Lynx Vision, that really are not portable). This is the real reason that they are paying their attention on this. We can consider this device as the first Steam Machine Portable (non official, of course) because you rally can run Steam (windows version) and play many of the current games on their library on this.

the keyboard, i'm pretty sure is not important becasue after some time, most users will found this uncomfortable to write on it (using only thumbs) and will be more comfortable connecting an external keyboard and mouse for a complete PC experience on it. I'm talking with knowledge, because i used many UMPCs on the past, and ablsolutely ALL keyboards i tested was so unconfortable for writing on it (and don?t talk about playing)

of course, all this is my point of view about the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 02, 2016, 09:17:18 pm
I am in favor of having a keyboard on the device, there are windows games that require a keyboard (old school adventure games, Typing of the Dead (which would be hilarious to play))

I just think the left-justified keyboard isn't ideal from a typing point of view or a style PoV.  It literally looks like a cheaper way to produce the device.

Actionable input at the near edge of any device seems like a problem waiting to happen.  But hey, I haven't held the device so who's to say?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 02, 2016, 10:30:30 pm
Oo man could you imagine dwarf fortress on this device. i got excited and vomited at the same time.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 02, 2016, 11:21:47 pm
Question:

On a Windows tablet you only have one button.  The windows button which is sort of the Windows equiv of the Home button. So if we have a Windows key on the keyboard, why have Home and Back buttons which are Android things. 
What purpose would these buttons have on a Windows device?   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 02, 2016, 11:38:55 pm
DualOS

these buttons can get common functions on both operating systems>

On Windows
Back may be esc
Home may be Windows key (may be needed to check the keyboard layout)
Menu is contextual menu
Tasklist may be tasklist

On android
Home is home
Back is back
Menu is menu
Tasklist is recent apps
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 03, 2016, 12:05:17 am
So well everybody's had different opinion.
I am not a hard gamer no even a developer, but I do like this king of gadgets, my preference is not keyboard take to much space, but is fine I will buy with or without
Kendy ,I do want those some  answers: I did help the GPD Win to get in the news, CNXSoft , Liliputing and after those news more to come and I did post a topic in Freaktab and Linustechtip bigger in Vancouver Canada and USA
The WIFI peoples are asking with technology dual band mimo  or AC 5 GHz, definitely we need this for wireless streaming purpose (steam games).
The UEFI 64 bit
Definitely heat sink cooling fan this SOC run hotter so obviously, if the hardware design team needs to make the device a little bulky its fine.
Stylus option
The SOC x5 8550 for sure
Dual channel 2x2 GB ram memory 4gb total
Storage 64 GB or 128 GB.
Please don't make to closer the ports Please space need it
SD card  more than 128 GB.
Dual OS
When or you think we are going to have the complete prototype render device
I will appreciated to cordial response thanks Rafael

This is for the forum, its really need it for a full keyboard lay up or is better to have a simply keyboard gaming experience, if you the full keyboard experience buy a Bluetooth accessories
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 12:18:22 am
leafar, you forget few points:

USB 3.0 full size port
confirm usb type-c for fast charging the device
DualOS firmware (post release of the device)
switch for turn off the keyboard (in my opinion, this is a main option to include)
XInput gamepad as primary option. Add a switch for change between DInput and XInput modes
and a switch for mouse mode, will be ok too. ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 03, 2016, 12:24:21 am
It really is unfortunate that we only have MicroSD slot.  There is a 512GB SD card on Amazon for $200.  Or a 256GB for $80.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 03, 2016, 12:56:24 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/Vn2KvSd.jpg)

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 03, 2016, 01:29:20 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/dpRYjZO.jpg)


Vic you are the Man
+1
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Canguy247 on February 03, 2016, 03:26:12 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/UvZR7Pi.jpg)

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html

Add another row of keys with a proper space bar(there is room above the keyboard) and this is nearly perfect!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 03, 2016, 04:18:50 am
the UEFI must be 64-bit.

you could also provide both, 32-bit and 64-bit UEFIs for downloading, and the user can choose which one to use.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 03, 2016, 05:09:50 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/UvZR7Pi.jpg)

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html


Best layout there man. Love that you have Fn functions on the arrow keys for Home, End, and the page buttons.
Though, I have to wonder if it might be better if you switched the Insert and Print Screen functionality around. Make Insert the Fn function, since I think more people would want easy access to Prt Scr for screenshots. Also while we're at it, why not switch Insert key with the down arrow key?

Just too bad GPD doesn't seem to care for keyboard ideas so far. Hopefully they'll open their eyes soon.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: chipan on February 03, 2016, 07:08:19 am
And here we go again.... Keyboard vs no-keyboard.

The guys who want no keyboard should spam the gpd-xd2 thread really. This discussion is beginning to get on my nerves.

GPD already pointed out that this device will have a keyboard, so GPD-WIN without keyboard is unimaginable.
Well then if you are completely sure the device will have a keyboard, you can be calm because you will get what you want.
Meanwhile, the users who want a handheld without keyboard or better pad controls can share their ideas. Who knows? Maybe GPD staff can change the design or take ideas for future releases.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on February 03, 2016, 09:13:34 am
While I'm all for a keyboard, there's no harm in people voicing their concerns about it.

It was a direct result of people complaining here that they decided reconsidering Android/Dual OS.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Citizen_Lurker on February 03, 2016, 09:21:37 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/Vn2KvSd.jpg)

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html


Well, I must say that this is the best layout I've seen so far.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on February 03, 2016, 10:20:39 am
Basically, something like this:


(http://i.imgur.com/Vn2KvSd.jpg)

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html
That's how it should be, imo.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 11:02:44 am
6 button layout for fighting on this layout is not a good layout for gaming.
GPD tried to include c and z buttons on their GPD-G7, but not in 3x2 standard layout

(http://utbgeek.com/home/bradu25/public_html/utbgeek/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wpid-blazetab-retro-gaming-console-buttons-440x440.jpg)

and finally, this layout is non useless for fighting games, because is not natural.

figure you want to play something like marvel vs capcom (for giving to you a clear example). basic combo for all characters are from low to high strike

on standard 3x2 layout, we have:
lp  mp  hp  (punch: low, mid, high)
lk  mk  hk  (kick: low, mid, high)

for easy convention we will name as:
123
456

then, for kick combo on this game (and many others with similar mechanics) you can do:
1~4~2~5~3
1~4~2~5~6
4~1~5~2~3
4~1~5~2~6

and variants:
1~4~5~2~(3 or 6)
4~1~2~5~(3 or 6)

etc.

with the proposed layout, you cannot do this moves in simple way, because buttons are in non natural positions.

my proposal is, as i showed on some designs, use an arc layout for 3x2 fighting games:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fZYByqs-0mc/VoZjbfy3JqI/AAAAAAAAWs4/NhMGQyL2cN4/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Version%2525203_1.jpg)

the Z and C buttons are sightly different from ABXY. they are concave for different tactile feeling, and with this are easy to identify without need to see which button you're pressing, and avoiding to press wrong button when playing in 2x2 standard layout (playing another kind of games that don?t requires Z and C buttons)

About volume buttons, i prefer to locate on the control surface, not as external buttons.

and i will include a XInput/DInput switch. many users comment to me that this is a very important point. At first instance i think XInput was the only thing we need on this device, but many users point to me about XInput is not usable for all kind of games, then DInput is important too (but in any case, XInput is the main gamepad mode that this device need to add)

i'm thinking that this "switch" may be useful on android too, to change between X360 and PS3 gamepad mode, that currently you need an app for swap between these two modes.

and about BACK key... i don?t know if ESC key may be equal in android usage speaking. Most times ESC key may do the same as BACK key, but i figure is not the same funciontality everytime, then i would add a BACK key to the layout, for completing it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 11:03:51 am
oh, and i would add another led: HDD Led indicator.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 03, 2016, 11:47:54 am
Basically, something like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/Vn2KvSd.jpg)
Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Keys now have decent spacing.  Missing key labels now added. Excuse the light grey, photoshop skills are not great today

Volume and Brightness are now on the sides or the front.
...
I'd be alright with the key sizes, spacing, and the LED indicators but axe any hardware controls on the front or the sides and move the numeric pad more centered so both thumbs can use it. I'd rework the area between the joysticks and especially what was on those keys into a more standard U.S. International(as in my layout). For instance, commonly pressed , and . and ' and " are in weird places when they don't have to be. I'd also take a page from GPD and regress just the height of the Escape button.

I want to point out to everyone also if it wasn't evident enough that the measurements of each of those tiny keys in GPD's latest keyboard render is by my estimates 7.5mm. This is extrapolated from 19 total key widths for the entire machine of 160mm including all gaps and key spacing. In forlorn perspective, that 7.5mm is about the diameter of an XYAB button on the XD. So, imagine reforming an XYAB button into a square shape, clustering them together, and separating each by 1mm.

As of today, that is how tiny the numbers and most of the other letter keys will be on the GPD Win.  :(   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 03, 2016, 02:51:07 pm
There were some more pics of the 3D printout on baidu.

(http://i.imgur.com/b1XDyoh.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/hbCTwNY.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ZYFiSah.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/BIYbJGv.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/1p9ijX8.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/BIYbJGv.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: chipan on February 03, 2016, 02:54:14 pm
6 button layout for fighting on this layout is not a good layout for gaming.
GPD tried to include c and z buttons on their GPD-G7, but not in 3x2 standard layout

(http://utbgeek.com/home/bradu25/public_html/utbgeek/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/wpid-blazetab-retro-gaming-console-buttons-440x440.jpg)

and finally, this layout is non useless for fighting games, because is not natural.

figure you want to play something like marvel vs capcom (for giving to you a clear example). basic combo for all characters are from low to high strike

on standard 3x2 layout, we have:
lp  mp  hp  (punch: low, mid, high)
lk  mk  hk  (kick: low, mid, high)

for easy convention we will name as:
123
456

then, for kick combo on this game (and many others with similar mechanics) you can do:
1~4~2~5~3
1~4~2~5~6
4~1~5~2~3
4~1~5~2~6

and variants:
1~4~5~2~(3 or 6)
4~1~2~5~(3 or 6)

etc.

with the proposed layout, you cannot do this moves in simple way, because buttons are in non natural positions.

my proposal is, as i showed on some designs, use an arc layout for 3x2 fighting games:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fZYByqs-0mc/VoZjbfy3JqI/AAAAAAAAWs4/NhMGQyL2cN4/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Version%2525203_1.jpg)

the Z and C buttons are sightly different from ABXY. they are concave for different tactile feeling, and with this are easy to identify without need to see which button you're pressing, and avoiding to press wrong button when playing in 2x2 standard layout (playing another kind of games that don?t requires Z and C buttons)

About volume buttons, i prefer to locate on the control surface, not as external buttons.

and i will include a XInput/DInput switch. many users comment to me that this is a very important point. At first instance i think XInput was the only thing we need on this device, but many users point to me about XInput is not usable for all kind of games, then DInput is important too (but in any case, XInput is the main gamepad mode that this device need to add)

i'm thinking that this "switch" may be useful on android too, to change between X360 and PS3 gamepad mode, that currently you need an app for swap between these two modes.

and about BACK key... i don?t know if ESC key may be equal in android usage speaking. Most times ESC key may do the same as BACK key, but i figure is not the same funciontality everytime, then i would add a BACK key to the layout, for completing it.
With that layout each key would be 5mm wide; I think that would be good enough for occasional use; because being honest, I can't think anybody giving intensive use to a tiny keyboard of this kind; I mean, you may need a keyboard in a handheld for some specific things (answer an email, rename files, surf the web). but nobody will use that tiny keyboard to write a doctoral thesis or type the source code of half life 3. So, It wont matter if the keyboard is 5cm wider or shorter.
On the other hand, this is a gaming device, and the ubications of the gaming controls are far more relevant than the wideness of the keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 03, 2016, 04:57:30 pm
Except it's a WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, not "a handheld that just plays console ports and ROMs that just so happens to run Windows" . If you want something like that, the Linx Vision exists.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 03, 2016, 05:07:36 pm
Except it's a WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, not "a handheld that just plays console ports and ROMs that just so happens to run Windows" . If you want something like that, the Linx Vision exists.

The linx vision is ergonomically crap. In the indie space there are tons of good controller first designed games that are PC exclusive.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 05:11:12 pm
Except it's a WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, not "a handheld that just plays console ports and ROMs that just so happens to run Windows" . If you want something like that, the Linx Vision exists.

but i can?t see the relationship of your comment with chipan comment.

ok, GPD will release a device with keyboard. is no problem with this for people that want this.
but, as you mentioned, this is A WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, that originally was focussed to gamepad supported games. keyboard was and addition that, sadly, is taking more importance than the gamepad itself.

What i want of this device is playing games with gamepad support as a portable steam machine. no more.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 03, 2016, 05:16:40 pm
Minus the poorly though out placement of the l3 and r3 buttons the current design seems very much gaming controls first to me. Judging from the photos of the 3D printout the analog placement doesn't seem any worse than a ps3 controller which isn't that bad.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 03, 2016, 07:36:47 pm
Except it's a WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, not "a handheld that just plays console ports and ROMs that just so happens to run Windows" . If you want something like that, the Linx Vision exists.

but i can?t see the relationship of your comment with chipan comment.

ok, GPD will release a device with keyboard. is no problem with this for people that want this.
but, as you mentioned, this is A WINDOWS GAMING DEVICE, that originally was focussed to gamepad supported games. keyboard was and addition that, sadly, is taking more importance than the gamepad itself.

What i want of this device is playing games with gamepad support as a portable steam machine. no more.

Different use cases I guess.
When I say Windows gaming device, that means EVERYTHING that that entails. Not just console ports and console emulation, but Japanese indies, classic windows games, flight sims, visual novels, MMORPGs, etc.
Basically any game that requires a keyboard, or can be played with a gamepad in conjunction with a keyboard for expanded or more convenient gameplay.
Besides, I find the gamepad implementation just fine. Considering the L2 and R2 buttons are aligned horizontally like on the XD and New 3DS, having the sticks mounted inwards makes it a little easier to rest your fingers on those buttons. Just my opinion though.

You could always just skip this device for now and wait to see if they release GPD XD2 as a dual-boot x86 gamepad-only handheld.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 03, 2016, 08:10:14 pm
For the keyboard vs. non-keyboards... GPD can make different devices.  It isn't like this is going to be the last device that GPD ever makes.  I can see them coming out with a Q9 style or PSP style Windows device as their next Windows device.  Maybe a dual boot Win/Android device would be good in a PSP style.  I personally don't like the smaller screens, but really don't expect every device to be for me. :-)  I'd probably buy it though. :-P

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 03, 2016, 08:56:22 pm
...
my proposal is, as i showed on some designs, use an arc layout for 3x2 fighting games:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fZYByqs-0mc/VoZjbfy3JqI/AAAAAAAAWs4/NhMGQyL2cN4/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520Deen0X%252520Version%2525203_1.jpg)
With that layout each key would be 5mm wide; I think that would be good enough for occasional use; because being honest, I can't think anybody giving intensive use to a tiny keyboard of this kind;
...
If the keys were 5mm no one would want it except to say lol or rotf on facebook. Anything more and you'll have to reach for pain medication. To put 5mm size keys in perspective, take the diameter of the Start or Select button on the XD, reform either into a square, and add just 1mm spacing between them. LOL indeed.

Tiny keys=can't type satisfactorily=bad.  ???   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 03, 2016, 08:58:06 pm
Oy thats a small screen for a windows device. navigating windows is gonna be a real pain on that thing. maybe well get a nice wrapper, GUI, etc....
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 03, 2016, 09:04:00 pm
Oy thats a small screen for a windows device. navigating windows is gonna be a real pain on that thing. maybe well get a nice wrapper, GUI, etc....

Steam big picture mode should do nicely.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 03, 2016, 09:10:33 pm
^oh yah i keep forgetting this machine will be a steam portable for me!!!! so excited [email protected][email protected]#[email protected]!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 03, 2016, 09:13:00 pm
I really like the placement of the keyboard on that plastic mockup. I can totally see myself using it for more laptop centric tasks(typing emails, file management, etc...)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 03, 2016, 09:14:44 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/FlXhRd9.png)

This is why the right two columns of keys should be moved around and then the keyboard shifted to be centered.  You'd have a 'border' where your palm won't press on any keys. 

Looks like GPD is commited to the keyboard to the edge though. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 03, 2016, 09:47:40 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/FlXhRd9.png)

This is why the right two columns of keys should be moved around and then the keyboard shifted to be centered.  You'd have a 'border' where your palm won't press on any keys. 

Looks like GPD is commited to the keyboard to the edge though.

It really depends on how hard the keys are to push.  If they are super easy to push then sure that would be a problem.  If they are more like the Pandora or something it'll be fine unless you are gripping it really, really hard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 09:51:20 pm
It really depends on how hard the keys are to push.  If they are super easy to push then sure that would be a problem.  If they are more like the Pandora or something it'll be fine unless you are gripping it really, really hard.

but there are another problem:

if keys are easy to push, you may accidentally press the keyboard.
if keys are hard to push, then keyboard will not be comfortable for normal usage

in any case, i think solution for this problem is adding a keyboard switch that enable or disable the keyboard, and with this, avoiding accidental pressing, but the feeling may be weird when you grab the device and press keys with your hand...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 03, 2016, 09:57:32 pm
They are mentioning on Baidu that the plan is for an October production run of the GPD WIN.   We shall see.


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 03, 2016, 10:05:10 pm
It really depends on how hard the keys are to push.  If they are super easy to push then sure that would be a problem.  If they are more like the Pandora or something it'll be fine unless you are gripping it really, really hard.

but there are another problem:

if keys are easy to push, you may accidentally press the keyboard.
if keys are hard to push, then keyboard will not be comfortable for normal usage

in any case, i think solution for this problem is adding a keyboard switch that enable or disable the keyboard, and with this, avoiding accidental pressing, but the feeling may be weird when you grab the device and press keys with your hand...

There is a happy medium.  Pandora is a perfect example: comfortable to type on but firm enough that you don't accidentally press keys.  :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 10:21:18 pm
Kendy, please, QUIT THE RIGHT BUTTON BAR!!!!! Locate this between analogs!!!!
and most important, LOCATE CORRECTLY THE L3 and R3!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 10:22:52 pm
taking away the discussing about keyboard ot noy keyboard... i get so afraid if GPD finally release their device within this button bar, and bring a device with ridiculous L3 and R3 placement....

and i think most of people here think the same way...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 03, 2016, 10:24:13 pm
They are mentioning on Baidu that the plan is for an October production run of the GPD WIN.   We shall see.

Can you link to it?  Also I was hoping for June~.  Oct is pretty far away.

The good news is that the 8550 can probably be used.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 03, 2016, 10:27:31 pm
September-October  is usual to GPD for releasing their new devices, then is something that we can expect.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 04, 2016, 12:25:28 am
How does the Chinese market use their keyboard? I'm speculating that the Chinese users may like the battery bar...

It has to be full size sd card though. Micro-sd is a no go.
It has to have xinput support

^those are absolutes for me.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on February 04, 2016, 12:37:08 am
It has to be full size sd card though. Micro-sd is a no go.

I wouldn't want full SD. Most devices use MicroSD today so at least it's compatible with more devices and the SD slot takes a lot more room than MicroSD. I have lots of MicroSD cards and exactly one SD card, and it's just a 2GB for hacking Wii's. When working with devices like these space is a premium. XInput is good though.

I think everyone here is overthinking the keyboard way too much. It should only be a feature for making the Windows experience more complete, not as a vital control. It sounds like a good idea, but you won't be playing a game and actively using the keyboard. There's no layout with this form factor that would make it a really usable besides just convenience. I do think it's important to have a keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 04, 2016, 12:42:52 am
Kendy, please, QUIT THE RIGHT BUTTON BAR!!!!! Locate this between analogs!!!!
and most important, LOCATE CORRECTLY THE L3 and R3!!!!!!!!!

I wonder what we have to do to get GPD to fix the keyboard layout. When it comes to the KB, they ignore Dingoonity, they ignore Facebook, and I'm going to guess that they ignore the emails.

@sirp0p0
There are those of us who will be using the keyboard and gamepad at the same time. Not everyone wants to just play console ports. I agree about the micro SD point though; full size SD is just too big for a device as thin as this that isn't prioritizing storage as much as something like the Pandora or Pyra.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 04, 2016, 12:45:27 am
It really depends on how hard the keys are to push.  If they are super easy to push then sure that would be a problem.  If they are more like the Pandora or something it'll be fine unless you are gripping it really, really hard.

but there are another problem:

if keys are easy to push, you may accidentally press the keyboard.
if keys are hard to push, then keyboard will not be comfortable for normal usage

in any case, i think solution for this problem is adding a keyboard switch that enable or disable the keyboard, and with this, avoiding accidental pressing, but the feeling may be weird when you grab the device and press keys with your hand...

There is a happy medium.  Pandora is a perfect example: comfortable to type on but firm enough that you don't accidentally press keys.  :)
The Pandora 2, the Pyra, is rumored to have a much improved tactile keyboard(better feel and less mushy). It's backlit too. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 04, 2016, 12:48:28 am
Kendy, please, QUIT THE RIGHT BUTTON BAR!!!!! Locate this between analogs!!!!
and most important, LOCATE CORRECTLY THE L3 and R3!!!!!!!!!

I wonder what we have to do to get GPD to fix the keyboard layout. When it comes to the KB, they ignore Dingoonity, they ignore Facebook, and I'm going to guess that they ignore the emails.
We have to lure Kendy out of hiding and ransom him in exchange for a functional layout.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 04, 2016, 01:37:44 am
I have emailed Kendy and let Kendy know that everyone on the forum wants the right column of keys reviewed and moved to the centre between the sticks  . The main keyboard then centered. Also L3 and R3 to be put near the sticks.   

Look on the bright side, at least the forum is for once in total agreement on this point .
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 04, 2016, 02:12:25 am
Just so everyone is aware, most people in China have already started preparing for celebrating the Chinese New Year.  Many e-cig factories went half staff a week ago, and most are now closed.  People travel from all over to celebrate with their families, and it is a huge celebration in China.  I doubt GPD will be frequently visiting the forum for a bit, so we may not see Kendy.  Around the 15th, many of the factories are coming back online, and by the 22nd, everything should be completely back in full swing.

Happy "Year of the Monkey", to our Chinese friends!  Enjoy your rest, your family, and your year of hard work.

新年快乐
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 04, 2016, 02:20:07 am
That reminds me, I gotta clean up the house before Monday. I'll....do it Friday.....
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Canguy247 on February 04, 2016, 02:37:20 am
It really depends on how hard the keys are to push.  If they are super easy to push then sure that would be a problem.  If they are more like the Pandora or something it'll be fine unless you are gripping it really, really hard.

but there are another problem:

if keys are easy to push, you may accidentally press the keyboard.
if keys are hard to push, then keyboard will not be comfortable for normal usage

in any case, i think solution for this problem is adding a keyboard switch that enable or disable the keyboard, and with this, avoiding accidental pressing, but the feeling may be weird when you grab the device and press keys with your hand...

There is a happy medium.  Pandora is a perfect example: comfortable to type on but firm enough that you don't accidentally press keys.  :)

The Pandora had one of the worst keyboard of all time. The throw distance was huge and the feel sucked.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 04, 2016, 03:51:46 am
In October no way Jose
What they thinking that they are making a gaming notebook come on give me a break, so well Wait for the leaf falll in my bed.and play with my wife,can't have another baby,but I will Wait for this baby
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 04, 2016, 04:52:19 am
Made some updates to my layout (from a few pages back) with changes requested by others


(http://i.imgur.com/GwqxdKo.jpg)

Updates include:

Some keys moved to be as close as possible to their standarad positions

Xinput/Dinput switch added

Added (5th and 6th) action buttons are now in an arc arrangement

PrScr and Insert have swapped. Ins is now under FN

Added volume controls under FnLck via the - & + keys at the bottom

Added Brightness controls under FnLck via the < & > keys at the bottom.   Brightness controls are actually missing on GPDs render.


Additional notes:

Blue dots are LEDs to indicate:  Power On, Caps on, NumLock On, FnLock on, Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled

Mouse Mode and Keyboard enable keys have been added (Centre - between joysticks)

Keys now have decent spacing.  Key labels missing in GPDs render have been added ie Pg up, Pg Dwn, Home, End  etc etc. Keys are 8mm x 6mm with 2.5mm spacing

I have included L3 and R3 where they should be . R3 can now double as a fifth action button if so desired. - HOWEVER - As I mentioned before ALPS make clickable sticks that appear to be the same dimensions as the non clickable sticks.  I strongly suggest GPD use ALPS clickable sticks. There is also a sixth action button for fighter games on the right side controls.  In case clickable sticks are implemented, i'd remove the L3 button but keep the 2 additional buttons on the right side controls for fighter games.


http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK_list.html

http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXV1224005.html
http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/HTML/MultiControl/Potentiometer/RKJXK/RKJXK122400Y.html


Question time:

What would people prefer? 

1)  Keys that are 8.5mm x 6mm with 2mm spacing between keys

2)  Keys that are very close together(like on GPDs render), but are 10mm x 7mm in size.
     If people would like to see what this would look like. ie my key arrangement in a 5 row x 13 key setup -  using big 10x7mm keys in GPD's key styling. I can mock it up in photoshop


Update: Here's what it looks like with 10 x 7mm big buttons using GPDs button style and minimal key spacing:



(http://i.imgur.com/8XuwzgZ.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Pleng on February 04, 2016, 07:47:01 am
That layout looks really good aside from the cursor key area which is messed up. I'd do the folowing so you have a more standard cursor key arrangement (if you insist on having them; the dpad can easily be a cursor key anyway...)

Move period key to where the comma key is
Move comma key to where left cursor key is
Move left cursor key to where period key is
Swap / and right cursor
Swap PrtScr and top cursor
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 04, 2016, 11:17:57 am
I have emailed Kendy and let Kendy know that everyone on the forum wants the right column of keys reviewed and moved to the centre between the sticks  . The main keyboard then centered. Also L3 and R3 to be put near the sticks.   

Look on the bright side, at least the forum is for once in total agreement on this point .

I don't mind the keyboard as it is apart from the l3 and r3 buttons.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 04, 2016, 11:36:11 am
my last messae was lost...

well.
i did some suggestions/modifications to vcoleiro1's design

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OpSFMdc2b94/VrMU-dieatI/AAAAAAAAXn8/MlM86yJZPUM/s800-Ic42/vcoleiro1%252520Deen0X%252520v1.jpg)

- Shrinked keyboard for adding some free space to the border
- Pause/Break key, currently is a key that is not so used for most people. In fact, many current notebook and some keyboards come without this key (and is a headache for people like me that use so much for programming). I located these two functions on keyboard as Fn: ESC (break) and ENTER (pause)
- Replacement of the break/pause button, for "Home" button from gamepad (typically the HOME button from a X360 controller). This button is frequently used on Steam
- Moved D/X switch for left some space, and for compensating the design with the right part of the device
- L3 and R3 are now placed where is free space and aligned with stick border.
- volume keys are frequently used, then i located where is C & Z buttons. Now, depend to the keyboard switch, these buttons behavior will be:
 * Keyboard enabled (user want to use the keyboard, then is no need to C & Z buttons): Vol+ & Vol-
 * Keyboard disabled (user want to use the gamepad): C & Z Buttons for complete the 3x2 button layout.
-Added SD and HDD led activity

greetings!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dema on February 04, 2016, 01:50:27 pm
Hello. Are there any rumors about cooling system? Tablets with Z8500 are very heat with x86 games.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 04, 2016, 03:26:52 pm
Hello. Are there any rumors about cooling system? Tablets with Z8500 are very heat with x86 games.
Nothing specific except a mention of an "adequate" heat sink.  :)

In related news, I translated GPD's layout to the usual format:
http://i.imgur.com/r06W8b3.png

(http://i.imgur.com/r06W8b3.png)
Latest official GPD Win render here: http://i.imgur.com/U8L5h49.jpg

I think GPD isn't hearing us because we aren't asking but telling them what we want. The ideal way to begin open communication with them would be if someone here would kindly photo edit just the main keyboard without adding any embellishments(no shuffling of keys, no Pause/Break, Printscreen, Number Lock, no L3/R3, no extra buttons, etc.). Simply a strict reproduction of their render with just the keyboard enlarged, stretched, and centered like we want. Other changes like L3/R3 to be made later once the image circulates around and people notice the improvement. Up to you guys.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 04, 2016, 08:58:44 pm
A couple of things. 

One, maybe we are being a bit impatient with them.   It's not like it's been all that long since we saw there KB layout.   Although that said, we did see the right column of keys ovefr a month ago and commented it should be removed.

The other thing to note, is that I doubt the WIN designers speak english . The designer on the (chinese) Baidu forum seems to be someone different to Kendy and Kit.   I suspect they don't speak english.   I think our best chance is to get someone who speaks chinese and could translate what we are saying to the chinese baidu forum where their designer seems to be very active and engaging the community.

Lastly,   You have to wonder why GPD are reluctant to put buttons/keys in the empty space between the sticks.   I wonder. Hmmmm.   I hope it's not what I'm thinking.

I don't mind mocking up a keyboard that is their design but with the following changes:  right columns removed, revised set of buttons put in between the sticks, L3 and R3 added near the sticks, and I would add Pgup, Dwn, End , Home under FN on their arrow keys (the last thing you want is for the layout to accepted and then have to fight another battle to get these added).  With all that, you would get 5 rows of 15.5 keys (on average single size keys) .  With 0.5mm spacing and a 10mm each side, you get single keys that are 8.3mm x 7.2mm in size.

Basically you'd end up with this: (main keys seem to be 8.7 x 7mm , hard to judge)


(http://i.imgur.com/fSxrNFY.jpg)


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 04, 2016, 09:20:23 pm
A couple of things. 

One, maybe we are being a bit impatient with them.   It's not like it's been all that long since we saw there KB layout.   Although that said, we did see the right column of keys ovefr a month ago and commented it should be removed.

The other thing to note, is that I doubt the WIN designers speak english . The designer on the (chinese) Baidu forum seems to be someone different to Kendy and Kit.   I suspect they don't speak english.   I think our best chance is to get someone who speaks chinese and could translate what we are saying to the chinese baidu forum where their designer seems to be very active and engaging the community.

Lastly,   You have to wonder why GPD are reluctant to put buttons/keys in the empty space between the sticks.   I wonder. Hmmmm.   I hope it's not what I'm thinking.
Active cooling cavity?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 04, 2016, 11:14:10 pm
...
Lastly,   You have to wonder why GPD are reluctant to put buttons/keys in the empty space between the sticks.   I wonder. Hmmmm.   I hope it's not what I'm thinking.

I don't mind mocking up a keyboard that is their design but with the following changes:  right columns removed, revised set of buttons put in between the sticks, L3 and R3 added near the sticks, and I would add Pgup, Dwn, End , Home under FN on their arrow keys (the last thing you want is for the layout to accepted and then have to fight another battle to get these added).  With all that, you would get 5 rows of 15.5 keys (on average single size keys) .  With 0.5mm spacing and a 10mm each side, you get single keys that are 8.3mm x 7.2mm in size.
A picture is worth a thousand words but we should be cautious. The pitfall about offering improvements is GPD may take a glimpse and dismiss the entire proposal. Persuasion can be a slow process. Vic, I also hope that empty area between the joysticks hasn't been reserved for a touchpad like the earlier concepts shown. The more of this designer's work is revealed, the less I'd trust him/her with a broom and dustpan.  8)

BTW on my Macbook, Fn with arrow keys is unlabeled PgUp, PgDn, Home and End so we should be covered. On second thought, maybe you should label them in case they forget.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 04, 2016, 11:20:47 pm
...
Lastly,   You have to wonder why GPD are reluctant to put buttons/keys in the empty space between the sticks.   I wonder. Hmmmm.   I hope it's not what I'm thinking.

I don't mind mocking up a keyboard that is their design but with the following changes:  right columns removed, revised set of buttons put in between the sticks, L3 and R3 added near the sticks, and I would add Pgup, Dwn, End , Home under FN on their arrow keys (the last thing you want is for the layout to accepted and then have to fight another battle to get these added).  With all that, you would get 5 rows of 15.5 keys (on average single size keys) .  With 0.5mm spacing and a 10mm each side, you get single keys that are 8.3mm x 7.2mm in size.
A picture is worth a thousand words but we should be cautious. The pitfall about offering improvements is GPD may take a glimpse and dismiss the entire proposal. Persuasion can be a slow process. Vic, I also hope that empty area between the joysticks hasn't been reserved for a touchpad like the earlier concepts shown. The more of this designer's work is revealed, the less I'd trust him/her with a broom and dustpan.  8)

BTW on my Macbook, Fn with arrow keys is unlabeled PgUp, PgDn, Home and End so we should be covered. On second thought, maybe you should label them in case they forget.

I updated my post above with an image of the updated GPD WIN keyboard with basic changes as you suggested. Although it's not ideal, it's not bad either. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 05, 2016, 12:29:21 am
Was there anything extremely important under the GPD XD's big blank spot? Would make me wonder if something similar is under that blank spot  between the sticks here.
And once again, great image and layout there Vic.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on February 05, 2016, 02:13:27 am

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the initial render shown to us has been finalized and is already in production.  They can always make a GPDWin2 if it's a success.  But I think since they got some press from PCworld, they are far more interested in speed than paying any attention to comments on this forum.

Still it's fun to spend time on mock-ups while we are waiting on news.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.  And yeah, fun to speculate, but not worth being so adamant about whether or not it should or should not have function keys or whatever, considering it's likely already finalized.  :)

Anytime you allow a dialogue to happen regarding ... well anything, to a bunch of people not really experts in the area, two interesting psychological conditions happen:

Parkinson's law of triviality
Dunning?Kruger effect

They are both interesting to read and they apply here.  Still, knowing this, I continue to have fun with the process.

Edit: Although I do want to add that 2GB+2GB ram for dual channel ram is actually extremely important for feeding the gpu.  Huge perf boost.

I'm not sure both of those apply to every discussion, and certainly not this one, they're not arguing over some trial feature like the color or if it should be matte or glossy and the function they are discussing gives them at least some form of credibility, which is basic preference and experience in using a keyboard. The topic is probably just pointless like is being acknowledged.

But I think nailing a good keyboard layout is not only important, and nessisary but requires the least amount of engineering prowess. I would agree the ones discussing the inclusion or moving of static parts might be well outside their realm though. Unless they have some form of mechanical engineering experience. ;)

I try to speak in terms of logical conclusions and throw my 2 cents in where I can actually speak from experience. I.e. Operating systems development, because it's what I do for a living :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 05, 2016, 03:51:55 am

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the initial render shown to us has been finalized and is already in production.  They can always make a GPDWin2 if it's a success.  But I think since they got some press from PCworld, they are far more interested in speed than paying any attention to comments on this forum.

Still it's fun to spend time on mock-ups while we are waiting on news.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.  And yeah, fun to speculate, but not worth being so adamant about whether or not it should or should not have function keys or whatever, considering it's likely already finalized.  :)

Anytime you allow a dialogue to happen regarding ... well anything, to a bunch of people not really experts in the area, two interesting psychological conditions happen:

Parkinson's law of triviality
Dunning?Kruger effect

They are both interesting to read and they apply here.  Still, knowing this, I continue to have fun with the process.

Edit: Although I do want to add that 2GB+2GB ram for dual channel ram is actually extremely important for feeding the gpu.  Huge perf boost.

I'm not sure both of those apply to every discussion, and certainly not this one, they're not arguing over some trial feature like the color or if it should be matte or glossy and the function they are discussing gives them at least some form of credibility, which is basic preference and experience in using a keyboard. The topic is probably just pointless like is being acknowledged.

But I think nailing a good keyboard layout is not only important, and nessisary but requires the least amount of engineering prowess. I would agree the ones discussing the inclusion or moving of static parts might be well outside their realm though. Unless they have some form of mechanical engineering experience. ;)

I try to speak in terms of logical conclusions and throw my 2 cents in where I can actually speak from experience. I.e. Operating systems development, because it's what I do for a living :)

Just to clarify, it's not every discussion, a dialogue about a *thing*.  I.E. impromtu committees.  Sorry I wasn't as clear on that.

Also to further clarify, I *enjoy* talking about changes and agree with most of the changes to the keyboard.  I also hope they hear us on UEFI 64bit, 2Gx2G, xinput, etc.

I just don't know how far it'll get us.

Edit:  The thing that I've noticed (from following Pandora)is that requesting small changes can actually have chaotic effects on actually getting the thing manufactured.  There are tons of holidays in China and they last for 2-3 weeks at a clip.  And then there is a ramp-down/ramp-up cycle during that time.

There are logistics with Chinese factories that I only have a superficial grasp of.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 05, 2016, 03:46:12 pm
I updated my post above with an image of the updated GPD WIN keyboard with basic changes as you suggested. Although it's not ideal, it's not bad either.
(http://i.imgur.com/fSxrNFY.jpg)
Nice. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 05, 2016, 04:24:29 pm
I think both of Saber's and vcoleiro1's final designs are good, and are certainly superior to the current GPD design.

Does anyone have an idea of how to suggest it aggressively to them, aside from spamming the same design constantly in every post in this thread alongside questions?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 05, 2016, 11:02:38 pm
I think both of Saber's and vcoleiro1's final designs are good, and are certainly superior to the current GPD design.

Does anyone have an idea of how to suggest it aggressively to them, aside from spamming the same design constantly in every post in this thread alongside questions?
After the Chinese holiday wraps up I imagine we can deluge them with everyone's advice again. One thought I have percolating is the inclusion of brightness controls. For a portable with limited battery life I'd tend to adjust illumination often, as I do with my XD.  :)   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on February 06, 2016, 01:10:03 am
(http://i.imgur.com/8XuwzgZ.jpg)

Perhaps cursor keys are not necessary having a dpad... Also dinput switch could be placed on bottom or left/border. Nintendo DS/3DS, GCW, PSP... a lot of handhelps have switches placed on borders

Dpad, button and analog position seems more confortable than 3DS alternative.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 06, 2016, 10:04:29 am
cursor (arrows) are necessary because are different elements the keyboard and the gamepad

for easy understanding. plug a gamepad to your windows 10 desktop, open any standard app (excel, windows menu, etc) and try to move them using the DPAD
you cannot use

and merge dpad and arrows is not a solution too.
there are games that keyboard keys have different behavior than dpad control.

summary: both are necessary, the DPAD and the arrow keys (cursor)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: superfenix2020 on February 06, 2016, 11:49:24 am
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm6/superfenix2020/GPD%20Win%202.png)

sliding keyboard that is hidden under the screen, style PSP Go
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on February 06, 2016, 08:55:16 pm
cursor (arrows) are necessary because are different elements the keyboard and the gamepad

for easy understanding. plug a gamepad to your windows 10 desktop, open any standard app (excel, windows menu, etc) and try to move them using the DPAD
you cannot use

and merge dpad and arrows is not a solution too.
there are games that keyboard keys have different behavior than dpad control.

summary: both are necessary, the DPAD and the arrow keys (cursor)

Last time I used a Windows system was 10 years ago... Is there any software similar to Tincore one? So you can map dpad to arrow keys when needed or whatever you want
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 06, 2016, 11:17:55 pm
Noticed that on the Baidu chinese forum, they mention the GPD WIN will Not have GPS, motion sensors or camera.
I suppose that's fair enough. Would have been nice, but you can't have everything.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 07, 2016, 12:50:49 am
cursor (arrows) are necessary because are different elements the keyboard and the gamepad

for easy understanding. plug a gamepad to your windows 10 desktop, open any standard app (excel, windows menu, etc) and try to move them using the DPAD
you cannot use

and merge dpad and arrows is not a solution too.
there are games that keyboard keys have different behavior than dpad control.

summary: both are necessary, the DPAD and the arrow keys (cursor)

Last time I used a Windows system was 10 years ago... Is there any software similar to Tincore one? So you can map dpad to arrow keys when needed or whatever you want

https://github.com/Ryochan7/antimicro
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 07, 2016, 07:44:16 pm
1. in addition to having the capability to boot from USB storage devices, it must also be capable of booting from SD cards.

2. to the people who want it to have the capability to run Android for ARM to use Android ARM apps,

that would require at least a single-core ARM CPU with supporting circuitry, and that means a higher price and a larger case size. we all know how everyone feels about a higher price, and there are people who have needs that no product that is currently on sale meets those needs. this could cover our needs. not everyone just wants to play games. we don't like limitations at all. we want a portable computer system that can do it all and that can fit in our pockets.

back to android. since most Android apps are for ARM-SoC-based tablets and smartphones, it won't allow you to run any of those apps without emulation software.

this product will be released with Windows 10 pre-installed and is based on an Intel SoC, full stop.

now, that does not mean that they will never release a dual-SoC product in the same, perhaps in the same case that they'll use for the GPD Win product, or a similar form factor.

this is an old example in the form of a smartphone: Fujitsu LOOX F-07C (http://www.gsmarena.com/fujitsu_loox_f07c_dualboots_windows_7_and_symbian-news-2651.php).

finally, if you want Android so much on GPD Win, you can install Android-x86 (http://www.android-x86.org).

3. it would be good to have a keyboard like the ones the Psion's Series 5 had, but we understand that it won't have this kind of keyboard because of the space that the game controller elements occupy that could have been used for it. so it can be something that we could have in a future product.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 07, 2016, 08:48:32 pm
no, android-x86 project is not the same as getting a DualOS from GPD.
basically, you will not have touch screen support.

but, i don?t understand. GPD (kevlin) mentioned that there is possible that they will release a DualOS firmware, after releasing the device, then there is no problem for people that want dualOS on this device (i want dualOS, and this is a perfect solution for me)

about ARM based apps... i don?t know which apps may be. considering this is a gaming focussed device, we are talking about ARM games?
which android games you cannot play on x86 based system with android? if there are few games, then no matter in my opinion.

another good point is: if this new GPD-Win come with GPS module?- most x86 SoC (Baytrail/Cherrytrail) come with GPS module integrated. If the case, then will be so interesting to have DualOS, because most popular GPS software is running on android. (yes, there are some windows software, but last time android gain so much popularity within these kind of software)

and yes, i hope we can boot from USB and/or MicroSD, for extending capabilities of the device.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 07, 2016, 09:09:35 pm
GPD have said the GPD WIN will not have GPS, or a camera or motion sensors.  They mentioned this on Baidu forum


As for ARM Android apps.   x86 Android devices run these apps by using a binary translator.   Most ARM Android apps do run on these x86 Android devices by this method. A number of Android apps though have been ported to x86 so don't need the binary translation. Most ARM Android apps will run (on x86) using binary translation - but some don't   You can read about it here:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/02/arm_test_results_attack_intel/

Generally speaking, x86 Android is fine running both x86 and ARM Android apps.  With some incompatabilities as noted in the link above.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 07, 2016, 09:16:03 pm
ok, but is there some list of apps (gaming focussed) that can?t run on x86 android ?
i mean, PPSSPP now is running on x86, Drastic too, most popular games. and as i can test, all run ok (the same as ARM device), then this translation (if needed) is not a real problem, right?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 07, 2016, 09:22:53 pm
I don't think there is enough ARM Android  apps that won't work on x86 (via binary translation) to worry about.   Generally it's fine.   You certainly don't need a second ARM SOC in your device (referring to a previous post)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 07, 2016, 09:35:18 pm
You certainly don't need a second ARM SOC in your device (referring to a previous post)

agree
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 07, 2016, 10:34:31 pm
 i was looking using mi amigo google in a found an article about intel its fully supprted to innovetion and ideas like for example a cross platform game engine call platino for x86 android devices and android devices.
right now most of the better games in arm-android are ported to x86 and runs pretty well and remember Intel doesnt want be left behind.
about the gps and others sensor matters,but its ok for the first GPD Win devices,reason cost,but for the second GPD windual or winduo ,it should be include for a premiun professiobal game handled PC device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 08, 2016, 02:55:04 am
you are forgetting something people.

Android is a Linux distribution that was specifically created for smartphones and tablets.

you will be able to install and use other Linux distributions on it, and most of (if not all), of the Linux distributions have all the required software for touchscreen support. for the ones that don't have support, the users will be able to download all that is required for touchscreen support to enable that functionality.

there are emulators that do not depend on anything that is Android-specific. it would be stupid to depend on anything Android-specific for any computing needs. you don't need Android for ARM-SoC-based tablets and smartphones to be able to play games on emulated game consoles and arcade machines.

in a few words, you do not need Android to play the games you want to play.

again, if you want Android so much, you can install Android-x86, but you will gain nothing without ARM ISA support because the emulators with the best performance on Android are ARM-dependent.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 08, 2016, 02:43:34 pm
i'm not sure if i'm uderstainding what you meaning, but as i can udnerstand you wrong with your point.

for installing android x86 on this device, you will lose touchscreen
maybe you can download and compile your modules for this, but is not common for normal users, then the best alternative is the firmware from GPD that come with android and windows.

really. what the problem with this?

and yes, may be a linux distro, but this is no matter really. think on normal users that don?t have so much knowledge or interest on compiling their own modules (most of users, in fact). GPD must provide an easy way to these users for getting what they want. As example, maybe i can compile some stuff, but I DONT WANT TO DO. i want to get a firmware downloaded from GPD, and flash on the device. this is quite simple and i think is easy to normal uses to do this.

and for android apps/games, there are lot of games and other apps that you cannot play on windows, then you need android.
yes, there are other "similar" but are not the same. the same at the inverse, there are lot of games that are similar to windows titles, but are not the same.
then YOU NEED ANDROID if you want to play android games, and YOU NEED WINDOWS if you want to play windows games. It's simple.

summary. the best alternative IS getting a dualOS system, that come from the manufacturer.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 08, 2016, 03:17:49 pm
and yes, may be a linux distro, but this is no matter really. think on normal users that don?t have so much knowledge or interest on compiling their own modules (most of users, in fact). GPD must provide an easy way to these users for getting what they want. As example, maybe i can compile some stuff, but I DONT WANT TO DO. i want to get a firmware downloaded from GPD, and flash on the device. this is quite simple and i think is easy to normal uses to do this.
A community-built Linux distro with everything necessary pre-installed is possible, it's just adding packages to the installation process.
Making an Android x86 distro should be possible in the same way, I guess. But Android has far more safeguards and is less documented than regular Linux, so it's more of a burden for the community.

I think we should drop the whole dualOS bit, as GPD has already stated they aren't going for it - quite possibly because it's a burden for them as well.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 08, 2016, 03:30:54 pm
I don't agree.
DualOS is very common on many Chinese manufacturers.
I don't see why gpd can't achieve this
Kendy mention that is possible to release a DualOS firmware, then I can't understand why there are some guys commenting against this topic.

Or simply, today my English is not enough and I'm misunderstanding you...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 08, 2016, 06:15:56 pm
I don't agree.
DualOS is very common on many Chinese manufacturers.
I don't see why gpd can't achieve this
Kendy mention that is possible to release a DualOS firmware, then I can't understand why there are some guys commenting against this topic.

Or simply, today my English is not enough and I'm misunderstanding you...
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that GPD has decided against it already, and has done so publicly - it's set in stone.
I agree that customizability is very important for PC, also, so it has taken priority. But for me, a larger priority is making a Windows device, so I don't even fight against it considering what has been accomplished. For you this is another matter, as you consider it a higher priority - but it has proven futile for both of us as GPD has already made it clear that dualOS will not be an option on the GPD Win at launch.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 08, 2016, 09:00:28 pm
1. it seems that many people are confusing firmwares of the IBM PC BIOS and the UEFI kind with operating systems. both are software but they are not the same kind of software.

all the new and common Intel- and AMD-based computer systems that can run Windows, Linux, *BSD, etc., have the UEFI kind.

you do not need to install specific firmware to install Windows or any other operating system that can run on common computer systems with AMD and Intel CPUs.

it will be the same with GPD WIN because it will have a UEFI system firmware and it will have support and implementations of those same standards that make it possible and easy to install operating systems without having to do anything to the system firmware.

it does not matter if they will sell it with one or two operating systems. even if they were planning to sell it without a pre-installed OS, you will still be able to install as many operating systems as you want, by booting into the OS installer of the OS that you want to install, from a USB storage device or an SD card, and (after setting up everything correctly), you can choose when you power on the system which one you want to be booted so that you can use it.

2. all the major Linux distributions include in their releases the drivers that are required for touchscreen support, and if not, they probably have packages that are easy to install (all the major ones have package managers), without having to download any source codes to compile, yourself.

so, a customized Linux distribution is not needed. at most, people will share configuration instructions and configuration files for users that do not know how to do it or that are not willing to learn anything just to use Linux with the touchscreen functionality on GPD WIN.

even then, why would they even bother with Linux if they are not willing to learn anything? they would stay with Windows.

3. the UEFI must be 64-bit so that we can run 64-bit UEFI binaries. 64-bit support is the present and the future.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 08, 2016, 09:26:53 pm
4. the GPD company made clear with their announcement and the information they have released that they intend to design and sell a product that will be a single-SoC one, based on an Intel-SoC, with Windows 10 Home pre-installed.

if it was dual SoC, we would be able to run Android for ARM so that the ARM apps that depend on Android runtimes can run on it. for that, ARM hardware is required, so it does not depend only on the system firmware. GPD WIN will not have ARM hardware. that means it is impossible to run those ARM apps natively. emulation software can be used but it will be too slow to enjoy most, if not all, of the 2D and 3D games that are ARM-only releases. also, it might be too slow for any GPS apps through emulation.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 09, 2016, 01:08:18 am
i get totally confused.
why you are talking about dual-soc?
and why you're mixing uefi with operating system?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 09, 2016, 02:29:55 am
if you want to learn why you are confused, you must answer this question first.

why do you want the GPD WIN to have two pre-installed operating systems?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 09, 2016, 02:51:05 am
Does anyone know what the button to the right of the power button is for?
The one that looks like a rectangle on top of another rectangle

Also, isn't there more considerations than Xinput and Dinput?, what about PS3 controller support mode as well etc etc.   It seems to me that a HW Xinput/Dinput switch is not a good idea when there are other modes that need to be addressed (like PS3 etc).  I think maybe we need to stick with a SW Gamepad config app



(http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 09, 2016, 06:56:30 am
@Dingoonityer, i don?t need to answer to me nothing. is clear you don?t want android and is ok. from my part, there is no sense on keep this absurd discussion.

@vcoleiro1
appears to be the app list from GPD-XD. i figure is the same button, that in windows may be task list
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 09, 2016, 07:18:20 am
you are not confused. you just do not like the truth.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 09, 2016, 08:33:17 am
you are not confused. you just do not like the truth.

ok, you win. XD

Does anyone know what the button to the right of the power button is for?
The one that looks like a rectangle on top of another rectangle

Also, isn't there more considerations than Xinput and Dinput?, what about PS3 controller support mode as well etc etc.   It seems to me that a HW Xinput/Dinput switch is not a good idea when there are other modes that need to be addressed (like PS3 etc).  I think maybe we need to stick with a SW Gamepad config app
yes, but PS3/X360 modes are set on Android. Windows need only two modes for gamepad functions:
DInput and XInput
if you're on windows, then these modes will switch between normal gamepad and x360 gamepad
if you're in android, then these modes will switch between classic GPD driver modes PS3 and X360 gamepad

There are some similar behavior on Tronsmart Mars G01, that come with 3 modes:
X for XB360 (Moga emulation that is the equivalent to X360 controller on android, XInput on Windows)
A for Android (normal gamepad on Android, standard DInput on Windows)
D (just another button layer from A mode)

the switcher is only this, a switcher, and the driver on Android or Windows will make the changes for different behaviors.

thinking on this, you're right that this may be a button cycle switcher instead a slider switcher. Maybe GPD can add another modes to cycle (that is very useful on android, because there is not a real standard for gamepads)

i will think on this for adding to some of my designs. ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AlexTemina on February 09, 2016, 09:38:19 am
I do think that dual os will be a market killer.
It would be even better that your phone.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Stachura5 on February 09, 2016, 09:43:00 am
I do think that dual os will be a market killer.
It would be even better that your phone.
If the console would have calling options, then sure it would be better than a phone
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Melquiades on February 09, 2016, 01:56:32 pm
1. Bla bla bla

I fail to see how somebody may consider dual OS a disadvantage or something to be avoided. The more the merrier. If you are so competent fiddling with OS and partitions, great, you could wipe out Android and leave a windows 10 pure console. Good for you.

GPD has demonstrated they  make competent firmwares in Android, that is sure, having Android it would be a good addition in case the windows part gets awry. Also, Android emulators are much more optimised for use with Android devices. They are much more "plug and play". I would not like havint to fine tune windows Retroarch in a 6" screen.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: mansergod on February 09, 2016, 03:27:52 pm
1. Bla bla bla

I fail to see how somebody may consider dual OS a disadvantage or something to be avoided. The more the merrier. If you are so competent fiddling with OS and partitions, great, you could wipe out Android and leave a windows 10 pure console. Good for you.

GPD has demonstrated they  make competent firmwares in Android, that is sure, having Android it would be a good addition in case the windows part gets awry. Also, Android emulators are much more optimised for use with Android devices. They are much more "plug and play". I would not like havint to fine tune windows Retroarch in a 6" screen.

+1

I can't understand why someone prefers a Win10 only device than a dualOS device.

My vote goes for a dualOS device, but I dislike the gaming buttons layout shown in the design. I can understand that the keyboard it's a must have to some users, but I'm not sure if it worth sacrifice the gaming ergonomics for it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 09, 2016, 05:12:32 pm
personally i dont want them wasting time on android updates when im buying a windows device. Id prefer we were all on the same page with the device. that way all of our tweaks, gaming profiles, etc are all consolidated. the difference between a windows device and an android device is drastic. One or the other will not run all that well. depends on the SOC which seams to be geared towards a 64 Bit OS like linux or windows. SO its a windows device... even if it did get android would it run any better than the gpd xd? if yes then great. moral of the story im interested in a Windows handheld. Im plenty happy with my XD.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 09, 2016, 06:15:08 pm
1. i never said that a dual-SoC product would be a disadvantage or something to be avoided. i would actually like that, since it would allow native execution of x86 and ARM software. i explained in my previous posts why it will not be a dual-SoC and dual-OS product, and why you should not be disappointed about it.

2. read my posts carefully.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 09, 2016, 08:29:03 pm
again with dual-soc? please, don?t keep with this line. people get confussed about this.
we never talk about dual-soc product. you are the only that are insisting on this, and personally i think is totally unnecessary.
with x86 soc you can get dualOS without problem. you DON'T NEED a DUAL-SOC. is very weird really. i never heard about something like this (x86 and arm based soc) and of course, GPD will not consider tthis because, if exist, of course is expensive and unnecessary.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 09, 2016, 10:23:14 pm
again with dual-soc? please, don?t keep with this line. people get confussed about this.
we never talk about dual-soc product. you are the only that are insisting on this, and personally i think is totally unnecessary.
with x86 soc you can get dualOS without problem. you DON'T NEED a DUAL-SOC. is very weird really. i never heard about something like this (x86 and arm based soc) and of course, GPD will not consider tthis because, if exist, of course is expensive and unnecessary.
There have been devices with the instant switch dual os that came with 2 chipsets.

That aside I think gpd should focus on windows experience for the gpd-win then do the same for Android on the gpd-xd2.

No need to confuse the marketing and development on dual os. For this to be an effective product it has to do its core functions really well. It's basically a pda that plays older games.

Have we heard anything definitive on I/O.  I really want full size sdxc cards. I can get a 128GB sdxc card for ~$40 that give very good sustained read and write speeds.

I'm just dreaming of playing dmc4 otg! Or maybe nfsu2...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on February 09, 2016, 10:29:01 pm


There have been devices with the instant switch dual os that came with 2 chipsets.

Just out of interest, which such devices? I've never seen any and it sounds quite interesting. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 09, 2016, 11:09:17 pm
DmC4 is fully playable on Baytrail. ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 09, 2016, 11:17:32 pm
Deen0X,

the only people who become confused are the people who know nothing about computers. if you had read my posts carefully, you would not be confused at all.

you, and other people here, are asking for Android. you want them to sell it with Android for x86 and Windows 10.

most games for Android are released for ARM hardware. that means you need an ARM CPU also. the reason you want Android is to play games. that is why you are here. that is why the majority of the posters and the visitors of this forum are here. GPD WIN will not have ARM hardware.

it does not matter if they pre-install Android or not. you will not be able to play those games without ARM hardware either way.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 09, 2016, 11:27:18 pm
Dinoonityer,

I suppose I'm now confused.   A lot of us have dual boot tablets with an x86 SOC.  For example I have a Chuwi vi8 with a baytrail SOC that runs Windows 8.1 and Android.    It can run ARM Android Apps, it does so by using Intels Binary translator which translates ARM code to x86 on the fly.  I posted an article about it (Intels Binary translator) a page or so back.

So when you say you can't run ARM Android apps on an X86 based Android device, and that you need an ARM SOC to do so, I don't think that's correct, thus the confusion here.


For what it's worth, I'm perfectly happy with it being WIN only, and I'm perfectly happy with it being WIN/Android.  I really don't care as long as Windows 10 is on it.   I do understand though why some really want it to be dual boot with Android, so as to access the Android games library .  GPD however, have said it will be a W10 only release with possibly a dual boot firmware option later on for those that want that , and I believe Deenox is ok with that, and I also believe really that most are ok with that being a later option.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 09, 2016, 11:37:20 pm
in all likelyhood the possible android port to the windowsGPD clamshell thingy will run like shit. feel free to proove me wrong. but itll most likely be a sub par experience MAINLY for gaming. while browsing and general app use would prolly be fine. Yes Android runs on baytrail/cherrytrail. how do those SOC's handle android gaming? im assuming poorly. were-as the windows side is great for gaming. id love to be proven wrong but i dont think thats the case.

I also wonder what the female hardware ports on the windows GPD will be like. full size sd cards would be great! or maybe even some of those small SSD's m2 42mm or w/e


FULL SIZE USB!!!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 09, 2016, 11:48:05 pm
in all likelyhood the possible android port to the windowsGPD clamshell thingy will run like shit. feel free to proove me wrong. but itll most likely be a sub par experience MAINLY for gaming. while browsing and general app use would prolly be fine. Yes Android runs on baytrail/cherrytrail. how do those SOC's handle android gaming? im assuming poorly. were-as the windows side is great for gaming. id love to be proven wrong but i dont think thats the case.

I also wonder what the ports on the windows GPD will be like. full size sd cards would be great! or maybe even some of those small SSD's m2 42mm or w/e

" im assuming poorly"

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to verify this one way or the other with a quick youtube search?  (I can't at the moment or I would)  :P
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 10, 2016, 01:24:29 am
android gaming is ok on baytrail/cherrytrail. there are lots of samples on the web.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc8Dquf0I_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQkMz4slGjU
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5N8MB-YjfI&index=36&list=PLXPqQ3mj-_IeCV0bRNiawrtGkmKpHq3Lh)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzuUWf5QKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaI74KO5M8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhVgENZc_YU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvR1f4weuek

There are no problems running heavy games on android, running on x86 sysetem (baytrail/cherrytrail)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 10, 2016, 01:30:17 am
...GPD however, have said it will be a W10 only release with possibly a dual boot firmware option later on for those that want that , and I believe Deenox is ok with that, and I also believe really that most are ok with that being a later option.

exact. I'm ok with this option. ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 10, 2016, 03:30:23 am
This thread suddenly got very confusing.

Anyway, @masterofstuff124
They've already confirmed what ports they'll be using. Rewind back to several pages prior to see what they are.

EDIT: Has anyone brought up the possibility of backlighting the keyboard? I can't remember if it has been mentioned before or not. Backlighting would certainly bring up the useability of the keyboard even more.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 10, 2016, 01:54:57 pm
EDIT: Has anyone brought up the possibility of backlighting the keyboard? I can't remember if it has been mentioned before or not. Backlighting would certainly bring up the useability of the keyboard even more.
Some of us have but it might be cost prohibitive to GPD for the first version of the Win. Would like to be pleasantly surprised though.

A keyboard combo to toggle it could be Fn with Spacebar or Menu. Some elementary way to activate it in a dark room.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 10, 2016, 03:10:24 pm
Some revising of the unofficial layout with attention on the void between the joysticks. Used the XD and the render as the normative guide here for what realistically could be attained.

Original GPD render: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EV7tLbT.png
(http://i.imgur.com/EV7tLbT.png)

Thoughts:
(1) The abbreviation "br" above Vo- and Vo+ stands for brightness controls. Volume controls pressed while holding Fn on the keyboard provides the illuminating shortcuts. 
(2) Didn't place left and right mouse buttons but if they're planned by GPD, to be somewhere, then they could be set as larger buttons each one to either side of the centered mouse mode switch for ambidexterity(or both as mini buttons beneath Joystick#1 with mouse mode switch moved to just under Joystick#2).
(3) Didn't label PgUp, PgDn, Home, or End but they're presented on Fn with arrow keys. Seemingly hiding them there is standard practice with compact keyboards, my Apple Macbook included.
(4) Extended buffer distance from edges to the keyboard.
(5) May not fundamentally matter but Select/Start and L3/R3 could exchange places.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 10, 2016, 03:19:01 pm
I don?t know if this image was posted...

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2n43I4nLoDo/VrtUnyHeG8I/AAAAAAAAXpI/7UZUHH6qv4E/s800-Ic42/db2b18d8bc3eb13539e9c0cca11ea8d3fd1f44bf.png)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 10, 2016, 03:26:11 pm
I don?t know if this image was posted...
Guess the layout is set in stone. Yay. 8)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 10, 2016, 03:36:56 pm
yes.

the right button bar make me to cry... (well, the keyboard in general... hehehe, but this button bar specifically is a pain in the ass for everyone i think... less for the guy that design the device) XD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 10, 2016, 03:42:18 pm
Oh dear...using this is going to be an absolute pain with the keyboard offset to the left and with the Power button in an area with a high risk of accidental pressing while typing (even if it's recessed).
Gaming is going to be absolutely horrible since L3, R3, Start, and Select are in the worst place imagineable. Especially for FPS players. I'll have to make sure that none of the games I'm playing well be using those buttons, because this is practically unuseable. Doesn't GPD know this? There is a split in the community about stick placement and the keyboard, but I'm sure that is UNANIMOUS that we ALL do NOT want the right side columns.

EDIT: if this terrible layout is indeed the final one...at least make the power button very recessed and make it so that it requires being held down for 5-10 seconds to do anything while the system is on. Also, put a couple of bumps on the F and J keys like on a real keyboards. Even on a small keyboard it helps the user reorient themselves while typing. My Motorola Cliq proves that.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 10, 2016, 03:44:50 pm
∆ true dat.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 10, 2016, 04:45:40 pm
We don't have the final word from GPD, and I doubt we'll have it before the end of New Year's celebrations.

I suggest we start spamming Saber's design as soon as kendy gets back here, at least that'll give us a yes/no answer - or maybe, just maybe, an opportunity to change their design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 10, 2016, 04:49:30 pm
I would be very surprised if the design would changed. I would guess the keyboard is the way it is because that is what's available to them from a supplier with the right hand bit being the only custom addition.
I don't mind it apart from the l3/r3 thing.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 10, 2016, 05:12:58 pm
I would be very surprised if the design would changed. I would guess the keyboard is the way it is because that is what's available to them from a supplier with the right hand bit being the only custom addition.
I don't mind it apart from the l3/r3 thing.
Hey, I can't disagree with the fact that the chances for that to happen are slim - but they haven't outright denied our suggestions yet. So if you care about the layout, which right now seems everyone is - why not help out once kendy returns and spam the thread with Saber's layout?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ladvd on February 10, 2016, 06:20:01 pm
dual os please gpd, I think it would be great dual os :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 10, 2016, 10:25:07 pm
Yes, in GPD's Keyboard layout, the keys are 7.44mm x 7.2mm with about 0.5mm spacing.   I have a slider keyboard for my ipod touch , it has domed keys with minimal spacing just like the GPD render.   It's keys are a similiar size being 8mm x 6mm.   I can tell you, that it takes practice to type on keys that small.  The first several times I typed a sentence, it resulted in 2/3 instances of hitting two keys at once.   After 10 minutes of practice, you get the hang of it.  It requires you to hit the keys bang in the middle and also to have your thumb at 90degress to the key (as best as possible).  So with practice you can type ok but it takes a lot of focus.  The keys are pretty small

I have another slider keyboard , same key design, domed, minimal spacing.  it's keys are 8mm x 9mm.  The difference may not sound that much on paper, but the visual difference is very noticeable and importantly the difference in use is massive.   It is very noticeably easier to type on and you are far less prone to hit nearby keys.   

This is the reason that in my mockups, key size was so important.   In the last render, the keys were 10mm x 7.5mm which I believe will give a good experience.   The keys have a surface area ~ 50% larger than the the keys proposed currently by GPD.

Also, there is another major problem with GPDs render, all the keys except for K, L, O and P are on the left side of the device.    This in self is another reason the right column of keys needs to be removed.   Well, unless you want to type with only your left thumb.

On a plus side, it's almost impossible to press the keys with the heal of your hand, even with the heal of your hand on the keys , you literally have to squeeze as hard as you can to do it.  So accidental key presses while using the game controls is not going to be an issue.  I have also double checked with Pandora owner who have confirmed that this doesn't happen .   I think the keyboard disable key will be pointless, but probably need to add it, to give people a feeling of security.

Unfortunatley GPD are all on leave it seems until the 17th. So we will have to wait for them to return.   It's a pity we don't speak chinese , as their engineer has been very active on the chinese forum (before the holidays) and engaging with and answering peoples questions and comments.   

I will probably start a keyboard and  layout thread at some point, I just finished a sweet of design ideas, some with 6 action buttons some with just L3, R3.   Which reminds me, we never got an answer from them on whether they have considered using ALPS clickable joysticks (for L3 and R3)

Deenox, where did you get that image from?


Just an idea of what a modified keyboard with 10mm x 7.5mm keys looks like (with minimal key spacing, and using the same key style as GPDs)

(http://i.imgur.com/eoDx7ew.jpg)


Alternatively you can have smaller keys if you also space the keys properly, such as with the design below (8mm x 6mm keys with 2.5mm key spacing):

(http://i.imgur.com/8dvMAf0.jpg)


Even a slightly modified version of their own keyboard (right column keys moved etc) will give you a decent keyboard with 8.6mm x 7.5mm keys.

(http://i.imgur.com/TJjxImJ.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 11, 2016, 05:36:14 am
Again vic, all three of your suggestions are brilliant. Really hope GPD will take a look at these and use one of them.

Though, now I'm wondering if there's anyone on the Chinese forums complaining about the horribleness of the current keyboard design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: R2112 on February 11, 2016, 01:03:53 pm
I guess I'm the minority but I'm fine with the keyboard.

Just remember that since they have physical mocks, every little step backwards to change something can add months of pre production time, and that the very vocal minority is not the majority of buyers who won't base their decision to buy on a small 8 button extended keyboard.

If the amount of posters in this thread were the only buyers, (100 tops? And that's probably generous) they wouldn't be able to finish this product anyway. Everyone's perfect device is different.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 11, 2016, 01:17:36 pm
no, there is a big BIG mistake on the design
they must correct the L3 and R3 placement.

changing this, the rest may be... "ok" (but can be improved), but the L3 and R3 correction MUST be done.


in other hand, reading on chinese forums, i saw few messages about the right button bar, and GPD comment something that they placed these buttons there because for now they cannot put on another place.
i don?t know if they are talking about the 3d print, or they are talking about the final mold. i get afraid about this.

we must wait until the end of the chinese new year for more news (and clear some things)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 11, 2016, 02:24:39 pm
in other hand, reading on chinese forums, i saw few messages about the right button bar, and GPD comment something that they placed these buttons there because for now they cannot put on another place.
i don?t know if they are talking about the 3d print, or they are talking about the final mold.
...
Maybe it has to do with heat distribution and that they require every precious bit of space between the joysticks. Reading the reviews on how toasty the Telcast gets wouldn't surprise if this is also the situation for the Win being that it's ultra compact.

While not a huge fan of the incoming proposal, I do like it more than the official render from a factory assembly and a keyboard standpoint. Can't say having Start/Select and L3/R3 adjacent is preferable either but I don't believe it's a dealbreaker for most users(having L3 and R3 both there does unintentionally provide a faux six action button arrangement). I'm completely for the clickable joysticks Vic mentioned instead though.  :)

Official GPD render: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/whZz8NB.png
(http://i.imgur.com/whZz8NB.png)
Note: Power button is recessed as in the render, and Fn with Vo- and Vo+ alters display brightness.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 11, 2016, 02:37:36 pm
but, why don?t put L3 and R3 near L2 and R2?
i don?t like L2 and R2 to be inline for use with a single finger, but maybe there is room space for adding L3 and R3 too

or best, why don't put L3 and R3 at the back of the device? (i suggested on some of my designs)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wCB2xMYiAwU/Vo7orBxW5mI/AAAAAAAAWwM/wB3g0g8V7E4/s800-Ic42/GPD-G59_V2.3.1_Closed_1.jpg)

(sorry, i'm not on my computer, and i can?t generate a version for showing)

i located L3 and R3 on back, for usage with mid-fingers. this layout let the user to press L3 and/or R3, while moving or pressing other buttons (that current XD layer don?t allow, because you or press these buttons, or move sticks, but you can?t do two actions at the same time)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 11, 2016, 02:42:09 pm
but, why don?t put L3 and R3 near L2 and R2?
i don?t like L2 and R2 to be inline for use with a single finger, but maybe there is room space for adding L3 and R3 too

or best, why don't put L3 and R3 at the back of the device? (i suggested on some of my designs)
...

i located L3 and R3 on back, for usage with mid-fingers. this layout let the user to press L3 and/or R3, while moving or pressing other buttons (that current XD layer don?t allow, because you or press these buttons, or move sticks, but you can?t do two actions at the same time)
The iControlPad had a set of shoulder buttons on the backside too and it was truly terrible. 
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 11, 2016, 02:49:13 pm
well, is a suggestion.

and i'm pointing only for L3 and R3 buttons. more may be hard to use, but two (one for hand) i think is practical.

it's something similar to PSVita L2/R2 buttons sumulated within back of the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 11, 2016, 03:01:13 pm
well, is a suggestion.
No worries.  :)

Deen0X, ever create a slider in a PSPGo style without a physical keyboard?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 11, 2016, 03:07:07 pm
I tried few designs, but i don?t found so much functionals.
the main idea i started was let two levels of slider: first level (or base level) is for get DPAD and buttons accesibles, for old system that don?t requires analog sticks.
This layout include 3x2 button actions of course. ^_^

the second level is full gamepad including analog sticks

but i left doing designs for now (i get a little bit busy on home currently) i will try to continue with some of my designs.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 11, 2016, 04:08:05 pm
that psp style design is awesome! i hope GPD makes something like that [email protected][email protected][email protected]! maybe god of war will actually be playable by then lol.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 11, 2016, 06:50:08 pm
For better or worse, switched Back and Function key places.
Official GPD: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wUUCT6I.png
(http://i.imgur.com/wUUCT6I.png)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 11, 2016, 07:03:39 pm
I think that if they're low on button space, you could just remove excess buttons:
Volume controls can be accessed both in Windows and in Android without special keys (kind of indirect for Android, but still very possible).
Brightness controls, same deal - only in reverse. Windows is kind of indirect, but it's not something you'll often mess around with.

"Home" is already fulfilled by the Windows key, and "Back" likewise with Backspace.

Function is a duplicate (I think) and should be removed.

We're left with Start, Select, Power, L3, and R3.

L3 and R3 should be as close as possible to the gamepad in general and the analogs in particular, because it's where they belong both thematically wise and usability wise.

Start and Select's traditional location is right in the middle, so maybe that's where it ought to stay? Maybe on opposite sides of the keyboard lock?

And now all we're left with is the Power button, and I propose just above the Escape button as the ideal (considering the limitations) location.

EDIT: Maybe this?
http://i.imgur.com/m5WOLny.jpg
I tried pushing the Start and Select buttons as far to the edge I could to maximize precious venting space, but without them interfering with the controls - so they're more centered than the analogs.
The Power button's position will only work if it's concave.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on February 11, 2016, 07:36:07 pm
i think the keyboard design placement of R3 and L3 in MADE IN CHINA"S layout is the most sensible. with that layout you can press those buttons without removing your thumbs from the sticks. you could hit l3 or r3 with the middle joint of your thumb. Many games use L3R3 while your already preoccupied with pressing R1 etc. every other implementation seems like a pain. even the L3 R3 on the GPD xd is annoying to use. I generally avoid them for what they normally are set for (running, jump, scope etc)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 11, 2016, 10:19:53 pm
Here is the problem: We don't know if GPD can or can't put buttons in the middle. If you start taking that as fact and designing layouts accordingly, then quess what if any changes you will get. Also , if  they really are saying there is no other place than the right columns, what makes you think above the keyboard is then a spot that would work and not also a no go zone?.   

I strongly suggest putting forward a layout with a more logical keys in the middle design. If there's a reason they cant be put in the middle , it will force a reply as to why. Or we could just ask, by the way , I have asked and am waiting a reply from Kendy when she gets back from leave

Personally, I doubt very much that there would be any reason preventing buttons being put there, I just think they are early on in the fine tuning of the design and haven't thought the details yet.  If you look at the Pyra PCB, there is nothing on the reverse side of the PCB accept the buttons and joysticks. All the major components are on the other side of the PCB - probably so they can interface with each other. 


(http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screenshot-from-2015-04-14-081354-1024x575.png)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 11, 2016, 10:38:07 pm
vcoleiro1, you're right about never designing from an assumption and only from knowledge, but I'm basing my improvements to Saber's design on Deen0X's comment:

in other hand, reading on chinese forums, i saw few messages about the right button bar, and GPD comment something that they placed these buttons there because for now they cannot put on another place.
i don?t know if they are talking about the 3d print, or they are talking about the final mold. i get afraid about this.

we must wait until the end of the chinese new year for more news (and clear some things)

Seeing as the large portion between the analogs is the only other major free space, I'm assuming they can't put too much or anything else in there, and designed around it as much as I could. The L3 and R3 buttons were placed in a place more logical, as far as I can see it, and superfluous keys were dropped in favor of a more spacious design.

In the end of the day, I just want us to spam kendy with 3 or 4 layouts we consider optimal for a Windows device, and have them either choose from them or let us know it isn't possible. We already have Saber's design, which I think I improved upon, and your design.
If someone can wow us with good or better designs, go for it! If it's good enough, I'm sure GPD will at least take it into consideration.



SIDENOTE: I don't know about the Atom line, but x86 CPUs produce far more heat than ARM SoCs, and generally have a backplate to disperse the heat around the CPU's socket. It isn't as effective as a heatsink, but it does help quite a bit, and that place can't be filled with more sockets and buttons.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 11, 2016, 10:51:38 pm
You can read that comment a number of ways.

1) They can't put buttons elsewhere, meaning all of our suggestions ie buttons in the middle, buttons on top of keyboard and L3/R3 near joystick could all be invalid.   

2) They haven't really thought it through yet or are still shuffling PCB component locations.  or bad chinese translation :)

Remember , it's only been 8 weeks since they had an idea of creating something, look at the first page of this thread and there rough user submitted ideas then. They went from nothing to a rough concept, I doubt it's any deeper than that

Just saying, but yes , maybe it is worth having a few alternatives ready for when we get an answer. Doesn't hurt to have things ready.

Personally, I'd like very much if Kendy could setup a Q & A here with their designer which I believe doesn't speak english - say with Kendy translating.


Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 11, 2016, 11:43:28 pm
there is always the slider version that we can re-considering again for solve the keyboard problem

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y_MS8LDvYvw/VoZjan1Y9HI/AAAAAAAAWtE/MNERcx5jUYQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Front%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

XD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redsky on February 11, 2016, 11:44:47 pm
That would be freaking terrible
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Canguy247 on February 11, 2016, 11:50:49 pm
That would be freaking terrible
Yes. Yes it would be.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on February 12, 2016, 12:49:10 am
I want to respond to some of the comments made a couple pages back about dual booting android. But don't have time to quote the important points. I apologize, but I'm sure you can identify if I'm referring to your post.

Bottom line, the good apps in android use ARMv7 and recently ARMv8 optimized code and in some situations code written for specific chipsets and more specifically their graphics chip. Without an interpreter layer or emulator, which would lose quite a bit of speed and gain quite a bit of overhead in the translation, the apps will very plainly not run at all.

Look at Google TV generation 1, all Intel atom chips, ran android, ran most Java apps, but anything written using the NDK, or had elements of native code in their programming would just crash. The vast majority of apps you would want to run in android, use those elements, and will not run. It is not recommended to use Intel android for anything but the basic android elements, and specifically not to gain access to their app catalog where I would estimate 80% of apps would not run.

ConsoleOS, is your best bet, and I also want to get it to run as it sounds promising, but I've yet to see hard numbers on application compatibility lists.

Also, the point about 64 bit UEFI, is VERY important this also has a 64 bit UEFI, it's not a given that it will! If it doesn't you'll be stuck in 32 bit OS's even though the processor is 64 bit. Not a show stopper, but depending on your needs (virtualization, some emulators gain performance from larger integers etc) you better hope for 64bit UEFI
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 12, 2016, 03:29:09 am
there is always the slider version that we can re-considering again for solve the keyboard problem

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y_MS8LDvYvw/VoZjan1Y9HI/AAAAAAAAWtE/MNERcx5jUYQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Front%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

XD
I cried with joy when I saw this. If only it were real...............sigh......
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 12, 2016, 03:29:29 am
Going back to what was said on the chinese forum, the only mention I can see re: L3 and R3 is a comment where someone asked if L3 and R3 will be on the joysticks ie clickable sticks.  The response was that they will be in the right column of keys and a reference to how the WIN is only 22mm thick - I gathered from that comment, that it's too thin for clickable sticks and they can't put L3/R3 there on the sticks - but that is a guess.  I did not see anything to the affect Deenox said.  I get the feeling that the chinese to spanish translated the comment differently than what it comes out to in english.  Maybe Deenox can link to the comment he was referring to if it wasn't the one below

About the 4th main comment down:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4325101675?pn=2
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 12, 2016, 10:55:30 am
I did not see anything to the affect Deenox said. 

i found some related message, but not the same that i readed yesterday:

Quote
摇杆和l3r3键合为一体了吗?方向键能不能上世嘉圆底十字键?机器做厚些可以采用圆底十字键的。棱角圆润些,方便按l2r2键,怎么样啊@游击队喷子


游击队喷子: L3 R3在右侧按键列。其实GPD Win整机厚度只有2.2cm,世嘉土星十字键结构太高,实现不了的。

on this message, a guy is asking about L3 and R3 buttons if they can be on the stick (and if the DPAD can be similar to Sega DPAD, that come with Q series), and comment that the rounded buttons let to easy press L2 and R2 buttons (that in GPD is a little bit hard)

GPD respond that L3 and R3 are on the right button column (and then comment that Sega DPAD is too big for put on this device)


i'm looking another post where GPD comment that for now the L3 and R3 buttons are on the column, what i commented previously (but again, this is an interpretation based on a google translation. may be wrong about some things too)


there are other posts about the current mold (3d printed):
Quote
游击队喷子: 看手型和大小,不过公司女孩子也拿握过,普遍反映手感合适。
basically, they printed their concept for initial feel of the device in hand. (that we can understand is not a final design)

Quote
游击队喷子: 不担心,因为国内掌机设计领域只有我们敢吃第一只螃蟹,外行根本做不好。
here GPD comment that this is a domestic print of the design, and the layout is not the final (necessary)


Quote
初期会推通体黑色款WIN,4G/64G !
first models to be produced will be Black device, Win only, 4GB Ram and 64GB Storage


Quote
其实GPD Win真的就是主打海外市场的产品。
interesting comment. this product is focussed to non chinese market.

Quote
双系统可以实现,只是要等一段时间
a commentary about Dual System, that can be achieved but must wait some time for it (assuming, he is talking before releasing the device)

Quote
摇杆可以作为鼠标,有切换开关
there is a switch for change behavior of stick between gamepad and mousestick

Quote
如果出 GPD WIN 2 会考虑6寸屏
Interesting comment. Based on the success of this GPD-Win, GPD will consider that next GPD-Win2 will come with 6" display.
Take note that GPD is considering releasing a new "MAX" series of their <7"display products. These line will be the same devices with 7" display. (yes, this i found in another post. but i don?t know where is)

and there are many people that, like us, are pro and against keyboard on the device. (but GPD mention that almost for this device is a must have feature)


ok. i must keep working now. XD
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 12, 2016, 10:56:12 am
i can?t post links, because when i try to copy them the final link is the login of baidu... sorry.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 12, 2016, 01:23:54 pm
there is always the slider version that we can re-considering again for solve the keyboard problem

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y_MS8LDvYvw/VoZjan1Y9HI/AAAAAAAAWtE/MNERcx5jUYQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Front%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

XD
I cried with joy when I saw this. If only it were real...............sigh......

Welcome back you didn't see the others DeenOX,design go to his YouTube channel.
Waiting for some of your comments.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 12, 2016, 03:01:39 pm
^
Unfortunately this slider design doesn't solve the keyboard problem for the user, it exasperates it. On a table or flat surface, okay, but we must recall this is a handheld and as such holding and balancing the device in the upright position while thumbing notes would be ergonomic misery. It'd also bloat the case thickness since that is simultaneously a slider and a clamshell.  :(

For the layout discussion, as Vic said we don't know with surety where keys can be placed, but we also don't know where they can't so that leaves speculating. While I find the recessed Power button placement in Made in China's revision agreeable, I don't think it wise to remove any other keys found in the official render, which is why every input that they have must be accounted.

It may be blind assumption but the "play area" given the bowls and sweeps and stylistic flourishes in the render's plastics could be the vacant demarcation above the keyboard and maybe the unoccupied portion between the joysticks. Also, we should consider L3 and R3 probably weren't placed between the Dpad/Joystick and Joystick/XYAB pairs because their designer arguably wanted to maintain a sense of seamlessness for those primary controls. It's doubtful we'll get a change of heart from him by pushing the issue, so we should keep that in mind on what design we all agree to submit.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 12, 2016, 03:29:00 pm
I don't know, Saber. I like things neat and tidy, without many buttons that already have their purpose fulfilled - and this is even far emphasized by the fact that the GPD Win has a very small form factor.

Regarding the R3/L3, I seriously can't think of anywhere else to put them that makes sense other than that place. If it isn't there, they might as well not call them R3/L3 (and even remove them) - the whole purpose of those buttons is to use them in conjunction with the analogs, and I can't see any other way it'll be possible.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 12, 2016, 03:29:55 pm
vcoleiro1 and Deen0X,

i searched around for Intel's ARM-to-x86 binary translator. i searched the source code repositories of AOSP (https://source.android.com), and the source code for the binary translator is not available there. i learned that it is closed source software. they call the binary translator, 'libhoudini', 'houdini', and 'nativebridge'.

libhoudini can be used with Android-x86.

here is an example:
Max Payne Mobile (ARM) running in Android-x86 (PC) libhoudini in action.
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-CfXG1esWs)

here is some information about libhoudini and nativebridge: https://commonsware.com/blog/2013/11/21/libhoudini-what-it-means-for-developers.html (https://commonsware.com/blog/2013/11/21/libhoudini-what-it-means-for-developers.html), libnativebridge/native_bridge.cc (https://android.googlesource.com/platform/system/core/+/master/libnativebridge/native_bridge.cc?autodive=0%2F), libnativeloader/native_loader.cpp (https://android.googlesource.com/platform/system/core/+/master/libnativeloader/native_loader.cpp?autodive=0%2F)

now, i would pay a higher price for an Intel x86-SoC product that has Windows and Android pre-installed only if it would be sold with Android Marshmallow 6.0.1 (or the newer latest release by the time the hardware is ready to be sold), with Intel's binary translator.

SNESFAN,

read this (http://www.xda-developers.com/android-x86-console-os-controversy-explained/) about 'Console OS'.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 12, 2016, 04:28:41 pm
ok, but i don?t understand your point with this.

yes, there may be software "translator" or may be there is native x86 binaries. but, really matter?
you can play Max Payne Mobile on ARM or X86, and this is the important thing. the rest... well, if you want to read and make yourself an expert, for me ok, but for most users this is non-transcendental. they want to pay for a game, download on their device an play. no more story.

and you will pay the same price. no matter if the device come with dualOS or not. in fact, the device will be released only with windows, and later GPD will release a firmware (that you will not pay for it) that come with android and windows, and if you decide you can install or not.

back to te thread.

@Saber you get right. the slider keyboard may be ok for use the device on some surface, but is not the best for hanging with your hands directly and try to type on it.
but, i keep thinking is a best choice for providing keyboard to the device, without touching the game layout. i think most uses of this keyboard will not be playing, then may be ok if the keyboard only can be accesible on some situations where you need it (and i really think will be less than most of people think)
considering you can map keyboard to gamepad, then the need of the keyboard for pure gaming is occasional.

and about mapping, i was testing the Pinnacle Game Profiler (https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7uqa20vLKAhVJbxQKHXk2BLgQFgggMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpinnaclegameprofiler.com%2F&usg=AFQjCNEL8ggVz9_Fb_02kQCONpoP9TDqow&sig2=Og0NCg45kfHEFBV58704Mw), and this software provide a very good platform for mapping to gamepads.
the best of all is some idea i posted at the beginning. there are a possibility to create shift buttons for changing the behavior of gamepads. is a very interesting thing to improve on this device (figuring is a non-keyboard thing)
example: you can configure most of keys for doing things, and maybe you can configure "L1" for shift the keys and transfor to another keys, or even can use "R2" to Shift to another new set of keys. (yes, you can configure many shift buttons as you want)
very very interesting and, with some practice, very useful too. ^_^
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 12, 2016, 08:33:43 pm
Actually, I think the location of R3 and L3 is pretty ideal. I want to be able to press l3 while using analog stick left (for running) on a windows handheld, utterly impossibly on GPD XD. That is easy on this. R3 is usually used as a button (zoom for example) and should be perfectly usable as such. So I think this will be much better then on the XD, actually. :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 12, 2016, 09:52:36 pm
For me , the best place for L3, R3 (if clickable sticks are a no go), is pretty much as per below.   You can put them in the same spot but in the lower half near the joystick, but I think it looks better in the high position as although it wont be the case , the visual of it in the low position (and I have a render of a design like that) gives the impression your thumb might accidentally hit it as it goes over it when using the stick. ie even though not the case, visually it would probably put people off who would aassume a high risk of hitting that button in the low spot.     Plus you cant use the stick and hit the button at the same time with your thumb as you might think, if you try doing that - just testing the concept  -- the stick would move as your thumb flexes out as the middle portion bends down to the button.


As for the home button etc, I must admit I have had the same thoughts as Made in China.   After a lot of research , there is a function that would be nice on the home - that being WinKey + D which minimises all windows and returns you to the desktop.    Alt + F4 - which closes the current app would also be nice on a button as would Task View which displays all running apps so that you can cursor between them and select one.  And yes the Win key itself gets you to the start menu where you can open any app by selecting it from the list, even Steam and apps under it appear there.   But all in all, all this can be done using shortcuts.   So not really necessary - although it would be nice. That all said , home etc could have mappings for certain circumstances. For example Home could act as the xbox360 controler home button if that's elected.

As for mouse mode, I'd use L1 and L2 for the mouse clicks, it frees your right hand to solely concentrate on using the stick as the mouse.   Also, joystick modes like Xinput and Dinput I made accessible via a similiar means as to the XD does with its setting for Ps3 360 modes.  ie hit the app list button and select the Gamepad app.  That way if there is a number of stick modes GPD want to add in the future , you wont be limited to whats on a switch

All in all, the centre keys could be anything really and anywhere - bar the right side columns :p, its not that important, and if I sent a note to GPD, I would point them to the fact that the critical changes are the moving of the right column of keys, the expansion of the keyboard, and some other changes etc, which fix four major problems with their current keyboard layout:

1)  The Letter keys are all on the left side of the device accept for K , L, O, P.  Great if you have no right hand :p

2)  The keys are on the tiny side

3)  L3 and R3 are in unworkable positions currently

4)  Some key labels are missing like PgUP, Dwn , home , End etc


(http://i.imgur.com/TJjxImJ.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 12, 2016, 10:32:56 pm
i miss a HDD led...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 12, 2016, 10:41:29 pm
I don't know, Saber. I like things neat and tidy, without many buttons that already have their purpose fulfilled - and this is even far emphasized by the fact that the GPD Win has a very small form factor.

Regarding the R3/L3, I seriously can't think of anywhere else to put them that makes sense other than that place. If it isn't there, they might as well not call them R3/L3 (and even remove them) - the whole purpose of those buttons is to use them in conjunction with the analogs, and I can't see any other way it'll be possible.
Of course L3 between Dpad/LeftJoystick and R3 between RightJoystick/XYAB makes sense, but it's not a question of what's logical or not though. I desperately want them there too but we all need to ask why aren't they there in the official render already? Why did GPD group them in the far lower corner instead? They could have replaced those two keys with Brightness toggles or even WiFi and Bluetooth, filled those positions quite easily, but they didn't. Same goes for Start and Select. ???

A lot about this project feels like patching errors post judgement that should of been anticipated by a more capable creator beforehand. This industry influence with making it super thin(at a reported 22mm) is unreasonable I think if they want to properly address heightened thermals in the plastic enclosure of a Windows gaming machine. I still have hope but we'll see how it plays out for them.  :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 12, 2016, 11:14:57 pm
Maybe we'll have L3 and R3(and everything else) where we wish them, but maybe we won't.  :P
In the interim...

Official Render: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AfSK43G.png
(http://i.imgur.com/AfSK43G.png)

(1) Removed Android "Home" and "Back" since they are redundant if Windows key and Escape are present. This is primarily a Windows device initially.
(2) Func is the special "Function" key, I believe, that was incorporated next to the Power button in the official render. GPD wanted it so it is here too for us to ponder.
(3) The "br" abbreviations above volume controls Vo- and Vo+ denote brightness level shortcuts while holding Fn with those two keys.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 12, 2016, 11:29:52 pm
Deen0X,

it is simple. you want Android to play Android games. most games for Android require an ARM SoC.

what does this mean? it means that you cannot play any of those games without an emulator or the binary translator from Intel.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on February 13, 2016, 01:10:19 am
Deen0X,

it is simple. you want Android to play Android games. most games for Android require an ARM SoC.

what does this mean? it means that you cannot play any of those games without an emulator or the binary translator from Intel.

I would also agree most apps require an ARM SoC or the translation layer, whatever the source.

It's important to note, not all though, native x86 android has been pushed by Intel pretty hard so they have partners and some larger app developers may include builds with native x86 specific code.

I still feel those cases are the minority.

In regards to consoleOS, I think the claims are blown out of proportion, I still have faith they will deliver. I was a backer of their Kickstarter as well. What their doing is quite ambitious, their timeline might be unrealistic, but the actual goal seems extremely plausible, and extremely time consuming.

The major include in Edit: lollipop just happened to be the shift from dalvik (in jellybean from consoleOS's launch demo)to android runtime. Which from what I understand is basically the most important part of what makes android more or less hardware agnostic, and to port that to x86 from arm I'm sure is quite the challenge.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 13, 2016, 06:52:52 am
there is always the slider version that we can re-considering again for solve the keyboard problem

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y_MS8LDvYvw/VoZjan1Y9HI/AAAAAAAAWtE/MNERcx5jUYQ/s800-Ic42/GPD-XD_2%252520%252528Front%252520Slider%252520Keyboard%252529_v1.jpg)

XD
I cried with joy when I saw this. If only it were real...............sigh......

Welcome back you didn't see the others DeenOX,design go to his YouTube channel.
Waiting for some of your comments.
Thank you :) I have seen his other designs, really impressive stuff. I'm not actually the biggest fan of the clamshell type console. That being said, DeenOX's xd like design with the slide out keyboard is pretty sexy to me. Clamshell is really the only way to go with a Windows device so I have accepted that aspect of it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 14, 2016, 06:04:00 am
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Crimson_V on February 14, 2016, 07:59:32 am
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

oh wow its true, almost twice the graphical performance for just a little more TDP, but its probably too late, maybe in the next model we can have the new Zen based apu.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordBlueeye on February 14, 2016, 12:34:37 pm
GPD Win sound interesting. I got GPD XD but it was boring, because this was just a Android Devices which I don't like mobiles games. But with Windows (x86) there is many good game I'd love to play on this Devices. As example: The Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Throne, Dungeon Souls, TF2, Broforce etc.

I've there a tablet (Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi) and all it's playable (on low settings). So I hope this device have a better/equal cpu/gpu performance.  If they do, I'm going to purchase this device. (Also at least Intel Atom x5-Z8550 have almost equal performance from Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi)

So, a trackpad would not be bad. Could be ideal for using click and point games. So don't forget trackpad, please.

I'm bit sad that this device don't support mobile internet (playing multiplayer on the way), but I can live without them.

Anyways, interesting! :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 14, 2016, 01:41:15 pm
You guys asking for APUs....the problem would be documentation and maturity of similar use cases. There's nothing like the GPD Win anymore, so the closest relatable devices are Windows tablets. AFAIK, there aren't that many (if any at all)  tablets that use an APU, especially in the same price range and in the Chinese market. It's not as simple throwing in a chip, making sure it just works, and shipping the products. With the Z8500/8550, there are many devices that they can reference for heat dispersal design and general troubleshooting. Support from Intel would be better as well.

Now if AMD makes a huge push into the Chinese market and Chinese factories start using their chips more, then yeah we might see a future device with an APU.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: sirp0p0 on February 14, 2016, 02:30:16 pm
I've thought of something I haven't seen anyone mention and I would want this above all else (well, except controls/keyboard):

(http://www.zdnet.com/i/story/61/18/026853/dell-latitude-xt3.jpg)

Wouldn't that be magical to have a convertible tablet like this. It would allow you to play proper touchscreen games and would make the device more usable from a web browsing/media viewing perspective.

Maybe it's been mentioned before but this is a feature I really do want. It think it would drive the cost up a bit for that kind of hardware though.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 14, 2016, 05:12:01 pm
You guys asking for APUs....the problem would be documentation and maturity of similar use cases. There's nothing like the GPD Win anymore, so the closest relatable devices are Windows tablets. AFAIK, there aren't that many (if any at all)  tablets that use an APU, especially in the same price range and in the Chinese market. It's not as simple throwing in a chip, making sure it just works, and shipping the products. With the Z8500/8550, there are many devices that they can reference for heat dispersal design and general troubleshooting. Support from Intel would be better as well.

Now if AMD makes a huge push into the Chinese market and Chinese factories start using their chips more, then yeah we might see a future device with an APU.
+1 you are right its not any reference for AMD devices,sure not,i will prefer intel base because is so popular and you can tweak,maybe in the feature, As you may know the project for the steam game portable console got cancel and was an AMD APU GCN 5th generation
The only reference to use an AMD APU GCN 6th generation, is project Discovery from AMD,  like Razer Egde gaming tablet.This can be a pretty good project for the next AMD APU low TDP for mobile.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 14, 2016, 08:15:55 pm
You guys asking for APUs....the problem would be documentation and maturity of similar use cases. There's nothing like the GPD Win anymore, so the closest relatable devices are Windows tablets. AFAIK, there aren't that many (if any at all)  tablets that use an APU, especially in the same price range and in the Chinese market. It's not as simple throwing in a chip, making sure it just works, and shipping the products. With the Z8500/8550, there are many devices that they can reference for heat dispersal design and general troubleshooting. Support from Intel would be better as well.

Now if AMD makes a huge push into the Chinese market and Chinese factories start using their chips more, then yeah we might see a future device with an APU.
+1 you are right its not any reference for AMD devices,sure not,i will prefer intel base because is so popular and you can tweak,maybe in the feature, As you may know the project for the steam game portable console got cancel and was an AMD APU GCN 5th generation
The only reference to use an AMD APU GCN 6th generation, is project Discovery from AMD,  like Razer Egde gaming tablet.This can be a pretty good project for the next AMD APU low TDP for mobile.

while it is true that there arent alot of amd tablets, there are still tiny amd powered devices that exist.
http://www.fit-pc.com/web/products/fitlet/

(http://apusilicon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/P1100241-1280x720.jpg)
(http://apusilicon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/P1100243-1280x720.jpg)

the mobo is tiny and it is fanless.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 14, 2016, 08:23:14 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

oh wow its true, almost twice the graphical performance for just a little more TDP, but its probably too late, maybe in the next model we can have the new Zen based apu.

The link for the Radeon R3 is for the whole family's performance.  The one for the 4.5W is here (more realistic benchmarks):
http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-A-Series-A4-Micro-6400T-SoC.115410.0.html

Here is the Intel chip we are looking at:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Atom-x5-Z8500-SoC.146640.0.html
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: p0rt4bl3_add1ct on February 14, 2016, 09:50:26 pm
Yes. I was thinking about this: a trackpad would be great as there are some games with no support for controller. Games like Manhunt and Point-and-Click titles.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 14, 2016, 10:08:18 pm
I've thought of something I haven't seen anyone mention and I would want this above all else (well, except controls/keyboard):

(http://www.zdnet.com/i/story/61/18/026853/dell-latitude-xt3.jpg)

Wouldn't that be magical to have a convertible tablet like this. It would allow you to play proper touchscreen games and would make the device more usable from a web browsing/media viewing perspective.

Maybe it's been mentioned before but this is a feature I really do want. It think it would drive the cost up a bit for that kind of hardware though.

GPDs current plans for the GPD XD2 includes a 360 degree pivot screen so that it can be used as a tablet - not the same as the swivel screen above , but achieves the same thing.  Strange no one else has really realised it yet and discussed it in the other thread on the GPD XD2.   Mind you they have also mentioned including 4 joysticks in the GPD XD2 .  What it ends up being could be totally different though

P.S I have a fujitsu Lifebook laptop with a swivel screen like that pictured, it's pretty good, has its own stylus as well which slots into it.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: nampad on February 14, 2016, 10:09:07 pm
I think they should just concentrate on Windows 10 as OS. Also, with the control layout, they shouldn't put the right analog stick on top of the face buttons, that is just horrible (the left one would preferably also be below the dpad).
I had a Blackberry for work and the keyboard was sublime so if they are able to rip that one off, it would be perfect.

I just hope we get the device soon. Having GPD going after the windows handheld space is a dream come true but I guess it will take a lot of time and delays until we see it :/

GPD Win sound interesting. I got GPD XD but it was boring, because this was just a Android Devices which I don't like mobiles games. But with Windows (x86) there is many good game I'd love to play on this Devices. As example: The Binding of Isaac, Nuclear Throne, Dungeon Souls, TF2, Broforce etc.

I've there a tablet (Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi) and all it's playable (on low settings). So I hope this device have a better/equal cpu/gpu performance.  If they do, I'm going to purchase this device. (Also at least Intel Atom x5-Z8550 have almost equal performance from Asus Transformer Book T100 Chi)

So, a trackpad would not be bad. Could be ideal for using click and point games. So don't forget trackpad, please.

I'm bit sad that this device don't support mobile internet (playing multiplayer on the way), but I can live without them.

Anyways, interesting! :)

Have you looked into the Vita? It has a lot great indie games and some console like titles.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 14, 2016, 11:17:57 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

Beema is 5th gen 28nm.  Cherry Trail is (intel's) 2nd gen 14nm.  AMD can't compete with Intel.  No one can compete with Intel when it comes to process.  TSMC only *just* started releasing 16nm stuff and Samsung is doing 14nm (without a deeper dive they aren't too different at first gen process)

It's not worth talking about AMD at all when talking about low power x86
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 14, 2016, 11:27:23 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

Beema is 5th gen 28nm.  Cherry Trail is (intel's) 2nd gen 14nm.  AMD can't compete with Intel.  No one can compete with Intel when it comes to process.  TSMC only *just* started releasing 16nm stuff and Samsung is doing 14nm (without a deeper dive they aren't too different at first gen process)

It's not worth talking about AMD at all when talking about low power x86
Please read and research for yourself. Take a look at the devices on notebookcheck. Look at the max loads and also look at the performance the chips can offer.

Forget the rhetoric and focus on the data.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 14, 2016, 11:35:53 pm
Monster, what SOC are you referring to specifically?

The two SOCs referenced in that notebookcheck article use 4.5W and 15W TDP respectively.   
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 15, 2016, 12:03:18 am
Monster, what SOC are you referring to specifically?

The two SOCs referenced in that notebookcheck article use 4.5W and 15W TDP respectively.
The a4 micro-6400t.

Compare the perf and power data on NBC against the cherrytrail atoms and you'll see similar max load data while the apu will perform better than cherrytrail below the z8700. Just a debate not saying anything definitive.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 15, 2016, 12:21:42 am
to manny peoples have a lot expectation for the new AMD SOC ZEN Architecture is promising 16 nm.
About intel says in the latest new that their are going to concentrate in the coming SOC in power consumption and not in speed. And we know that AMD is all about for power consumption,graphic(APU) and mostly gaming,i dont want to make any assumption,but i will hope that AMD can make it,the only thing its priceless when it come to make something like the GPD Win 2 because itsnt a demand or like AMD its not Intel to subsidize companies
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 15, 2016, 07:21:28 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

Beema is 5th gen 28nm.  Cherry Trail is (intel's) 2nd gen 14nm.  AMD can't compete with Intel.  No one can compete with Intel when it comes to process.  TSMC only *just* started releasing 16nm stuff and Samsung is doing 14nm (without a deeper dive they aren't too different at first gen process)

It's not worth talking about AMD at all when talking about low power x86
Please read and research for yourself. Take a look at the devices on notebookcheck. Look at the max loads and also look at the performance the chips can offer.

Forget the rhetoric and focus on the data.

What rhetoric?  I am an AMD fan but you have to accept facts.  14nm vs 28nm isn't a contest.  14nm IS superior.  You are comparing a 4.5watt (AMD) part to a 2watt (Intel) part.  That's the data.

Now if we are talking about AMD Zen, that's a different story.  But AMD Zen won't exist until sometime next year.  And when that happens for AMD, Intel will most likely be on a 10nm node.

This is coming from someone who has only owned AMD GPUs since 2008.  And the reason is because nVidia is at the same node that AMD is at.


(http://i.imgur.com/YJnxvFA.png)

And there it is.  AMD Mullins which is a 4.5 WATT part is about 20% better than the 2 WATT Intel Z8500 in a graphics benchmark.

BUT!  AMD takes 2.25X MORE power for a 20% improvement for a graphics test. 

There is no contest.  The Intel Part is superior for Mobile.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 15, 2016, 08:00:34 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

Beema is 5th gen 28nm.  Cherry Trail is (intel's) 2nd gen 14nm.  AMD can't compete with Intel.  No one can compete with Intel when it comes to process.  TSMC only *just* started releasing 16nm stuff and Samsung is doing 14nm (without a deeper dive they aren't too different at first gen process)

It's not worth talking about AMD at all when talking about low power x86
Please read and research for yourself. Take a look at the devices on notebookcheck. Look at the max loads and also look at the performance the chips can offer.

Forget the rhetoric and focus on the data.

What rhetoric?  I am an AMD fan but you have to accept facts.  14nm vs 28nm isn't a contest.  14nm IS superior.  You are comparing a 4.5watt (AMD) part to a 2watt (Intel) part.  That's the data.

Now if we are talking about AMD Zen, that's a different story.  But AMD Zen won't exist until sometime next year.  And when that happens for AMD, Intel will most likely be on a 10nm node.

This is coming from someone who has only owned AMD GPUs since 2008.  And the reason is because nVidia is at the same node that AMD is at.


(http://i.imgur.com/YJnxvFA.png)

And there it is.  AMD Mullins which is a 4.5 WATT part is about 20% better than the 2 WATT Intel Z8500 in a graphics benchmark.

BUT!  AMD takes 2.25X MORE power for a 20% improvement for a graphics test. 

There is no contest.  The Intel Part is superior for Mobile.
Do just a little more research, please note that tdp!=power draw, though there is a correlation.  Look at NBC and at actual devices shipping and you'll see.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 15, 2016, 08:46:32 pm
I know this was discussed already but studying up on cherrytrail, the amd micro apu uses about the same powr and performs better. I base this conclusion on data I got from Notebookcheck

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-Cherry-Trail-Benchmarks.140902.0.html

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-R3-Mullins-Beema.115401.0.html

Beema is 5th gen 28nm.  Cherry Trail is (intel's) 2nd gen 14nm.  AMD can't compete with Intel.  No one can compete with Intel when it comes to process.  TSMC only *just* started releasing 16nm stuff and Samsung is doing 14nm (without a deeper dive they aren't too different at first gen process)

It's not worth talking about AMD at all when talking about low power x86
Please read and research for yourself. Take a look at the devices on notebookcheck. Look at the max loads and also look at the performance the chips can offer.

Forget the rhetoric and focus on the data.

What rhetoric?  I am an AMD fan but you have to accept facts.  14nm vs 28nm isn't a contest.  14nm IS superior.  You are comparing a 4.5watt (AMD) part to a 2watt (Intel) part.  That's the data.

Now if we are talking about AMD Zen, that's a different story.  But AMD Zen won't exist until sometime next year.  And when that happens for AMD, Intel will most likely be on a 10nm node.

This is coming from someone who has only owned AMD GPUs since 2008.  And the reason is because nVidia is at the same node that AMD is at.


(http://i.imgur.com/YJnxvFA.png)

And there it is.  AMD Mullins which is a 4.5 WATT part is about 20% better than the 2 WATT Intel Z8500 in a graphics benchmark.

BUT!  AMD takes 2.25X MORE power for a 20% improvement for a graphics test. 

There is no contest.  The Intel Part is superior for Mobile.
Do just a little more research, please note that tdp!=power draw, though there is a correlation.  Look at NBC and at actual devices shipping and you'll see.

Okay here are the facts:

- AMD CPUs can't compete with Intel, including mobile
- AMD GPUs are way better than ALL of Intel GPUs, including mobile
- Intel's GPU drivers are shit
- AMD's GPU drivers are considerably better than Intel's
- AMD has not been effective at all with selling the 6700T
- The Z8500 has been produced in great quantity which is why you are seeing Chinese makers flocking to them

It really doesn't matter if you don't want to concede that Mullins is a shit mobile part, the industry has come to that conclusion.  In fact the ONLY tablet I can find that uses an AMD 6700T is Fitlet H mini computer and the BungBungame.  The mini PC is over $400 and the tablet is over $500.

These prices are a non-starter.  Regardless if you don't want to accept that AMD can't compete with Intel because of node process, the very fact that it's easy to get a Z8500 Tablet like the Teclast X98 Pro for $250 is HALF the price of an AMD 6700T model.

No matter which way you look at this argument, AMD loses.

Again, I am an AMD fan!  But you have to accept physics and what the market chose as the winner.[/list]
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 15, 2016, 10:52:05 pm
I don't have a dog in this fight but will throw in my two cents. I have been moving away from AMD on the desktop platform due to crappy drivers. I know the desktop platform and the mobile platform are apples to oranges. I'm ignorant as to the current quality of support for AMD mobile. If its anything like their desktop support, I don't want them. I can't begin to tell you how many games that ran like crap on my computer for all various reasons, run great now that I switched to a nvidia gpu. Again, this is my uneducated opinion as I know nothing of the mobile part. However, as a long time AMD supporter, I have been burned way to many times.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 15, 2016, 11:19:11 pm
I don't have a dog in this fight but will throw in my two cents. I have been moving away from AMD on the desktop platform due to crappy drivers. I know the desktop platform and the mobile platform are apples to oranges. I'm ignorant as to the current quality of support for AMD mobile. If its anything like their desktop support, I don't want them. I can't begin to tell you how many games that ran like crap on my computer for all various reasons, run great now that I switched to a nvidia gpu. Again, this is my uneducated opinion as I know nothing of the mobile part. However, as a long time AMD supporter, I have been burned way to many times.

ATI's drivers were garbage.  When ATI was acquired and AMD and took over, the drivers have become far better.  Since 2010~

I will easily concede that nVidia is far more aggressive with gaining perf from optimizing drivers, they do have a track record of sending nVidia people over to game companies and have access to source code to optimize against that.

Having said that, nVidia charges considerably more for comparative products, they use the same nodes that AMD has available (TSMC) so it all comes down to architecture and drivers when it comes to performance.  Additionally, nVidia plays dirty with their gameworx crap.  Basically everything they do that's a feature costs the consumer more.  Hopefully they lose with Gsync and Adaptive Sync wins (which is looking likely.).

Any feature that nVidia has can be replaced by a third party sans PhysX.

AMD looks like they will also get 14nm Polaris out a few months before nVidia will get Pascal out to customers.  Additionally they'll be packing HBM2 so they will destroy nVidia for a couple of months while nVidia won't be able to answer.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 15, 2016, 11:21:45 pm
The problem here is that there is not enough data to compare a Cherry Trail SOC with that AMD SOC.  Intel don't give a TDP for Cherry Trail, instead they provide SDP - which is 2W.  SDP is not TDP. I know some sites have mistaken;ly used that SDP figure as the TDP , but that is very wrong.  On the flip side, we know how much Cherry Trail SOCs cost , but I have yet to see a price on those AMD SOCs.   

An Intel Core M3 has a TDP of 4.5W, so are we to compare that AMD to a core M3?     

Really, unless you know some more info, it's not reasonable to compare it to Cherry Trail.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 15, 2016, 11:40:49 pm
The problem here is that there is not enough data to compare a Cherry Trail SOC with that AMD SOC.  Intel don't give a TDP for Cherry Trail, instead they provide SDP - which is 2W.  SDP is not TDP. I know some sites have mistaken;ly used that SDP figure as the TDP , but that is very wrong.  On the flip side, we know how much Cherry Trail SOCs cost , but I have yet to see a price on those AMD SOCs.   

An Intel Core M3 has a TDP of 4.5W, so are we to compare that AMD to a core M3?     

Really, unless you know some more info, it's not reasonable to compare it to Cherry Trail.

That's true.  I will concede that fact that SDP is some BS that Intel created.  What is also true is if you take a design and manufacture it at 28nm and 14nm (and let's assume that they fix any problems that cropped up between the two nodes)  The one running at 14nm would take less power at the same frequency vs 28nm.  Obviously I don't think we can still use hard and fast rules when we are so close to the limit of silicon, but it still applies to a degree.   

Look at consoles.  The xbox 360 went from 90nm to 40nm and halved power usage.  That's not my opinion. 

Additionally, even if we can't get the BOM on a 6700T, the fact that the few places that created an AMD tablet had very high prices attached to them doesn't speak well on how cheap the part can be acquired. (obviously this is more because the part isn't produced in great quantity)

Lastly, this is the last I'll talk about the topic as it isn't really productive.  GPD is using the Z8500 and that's it. 

An Intel Core M3 has a TDP of 4.5W, so are we to compare that AMD to a core M3?     

Really, unless you know some more info, it's not reasonable to compare it to Cherry Trail.

I would argue that if you wanted a better comparison, you'd have to find a mobile Intel part at 32 or 22nm in that tdp.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 15, 2016, 11:45:46 pm
You mean the Z8550  :)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 15, 2016, 11:47:27 pm
You mean the Z8550  :)

GPD confirmed this?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 15, 2016, 11:50:24 pm
No real choice (eventually anyway), it replaces the Z8500 to fix issues with it.  But yes they did say they will use it if it was available, and I noticed it is now flagged as launched on Intels site.

Apparently it fixes some graphics issues in the Z8500. There  is  a rumor going around that it may fix some of the heating issues also.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 16, 2016, 12:11:00 am
I don't have a dog in this fight but will throw in my two cents. I have been moving away from AMD on the desktop platform due to crappy drivers. I know the desktop platform and the mobile platform are apples to oranges. I'm ignorant as to the current quality of support for AMD mobile. If its anything like their desktop support, I don't want them. I can't begin to tell you how many games that ran like crap on my computer for all various reasons, run great now that I switched to a nvidia gpu. Again, this is my uneducated opinion as I know nothing of the mobile part. However, as a long time AMD supporter, I have been burned way to many times.

ATI's drivers were garbage.  When ATI was acquired and AMD and took over, the drivers have become far better.  Since 2010~

I will easily concede that nVidia is far more aggressive with gaining perf from optimizing drivers, they do have a track record of sending nVidia people over to game companies and have access to source code to optimize against that.

Having said that, nVidia charges considerably more for comparative products, they use the same nodes that AMD has available (TSMC) so it all comes down to architecture and drivers when it comes to performance.  Additionally, nVidia plays dirty with their gameworx crap.  Basically everything they do that's a feature costs the consumer more.  Hopefully they lose with Gsync and Adaptive Sync wins (which is looking likely.).

Any feature that nVidia has can be replaced by a third party sans PhysX.

AMD looks like they will also get 14nm Polaris out a few months before nVidia will get Pascal out to customers.  Additionally they'll be packing HBM2 so they will destroy nVidia for a couple of months while nVidia won't be able to answer.
Sadly I'm all to aware of AMD's ups and downs as well as Nvidia's questionable practices. I'm also far from being a fan of intel's gpus. In a perfect world we would get intel's cpu performance with AMD's gpu perfomance on a soc with ultra low tdp and stable drivers.
I'm very excited for the GDP win either way and can't wait to see the final product. I'm curious if the device will come with a demo version of windows or a full liscence release as seems to be the practice from alot of over seas manufacturers these days. Will also be curious to see what optimizations if any will be made to remove unneeded overheard from the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 16, 2016, 12:38:47 am
Let's keep this debate civil phawx and note that only the sith deal in absolutes.

 Vcoleiro1 you are right we don't have tonnes of data to compare the docs in a like for like fashion. However the data collected on NBC is pretty useful in allowing us to see the broader details.

Take the best tablet with the proposed sku and compare it to the amd micro-6400t. Compare icestorm, a game and max power draw Then form your opinion.

Not about 14nm or 28nm or other superfluous things. Also herctnt, I can assure you that the amd drivers will be much better than Intel's.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 16, 2016, 12:48:37 am
No real choice (eventually anyway), it replaces the Z8500 to fix issues with it.  But yes they did say they will use it if it was available, and I noticed it is now flagged as launched on Intels site.

Apparently it fixes some graphics issues in the Z8500. There  is  a rumor going around that it may fix some of the heating issues also.

I hope this is the case

I don't have a dog in this fight but will throw in my two cents. I have been moving away from AMD on the desktop platform due to crappy drivers. I know the desktop platform and the mobile platform are apples to oranges. I'm ignorant as to the current quality of support for AMD mobile. If its anything like their desktop support, I don't want them. I can't begin to tell you how many games that ran like crap on my computer for all various reasons, run great now that I switched to a nvidia gpu. Again, this is my uneducated opinion as I know nothing of the mobile part. However, as a long time AMD supporter, I have been burned way to many times.

ATI's drivers were garbage.  When ATI was acquired and AMD and took over, the drivers have become far better.  Since 2010~

I will easily concede that nVidia is far more aggressive with gaining perf from optimizing drivers, they do have a track record of sending nVidia people over to game companies and have access to source code to optimize against that.

Having said that, nVidia charges considerably more for comparative products, they use the same nodes that AMD has available (TSMC) so it all comes down to architecture and drivers when it comes to performance.  Additionally, nVidia plays dirty with their gameworx crap.  Basically everything they do that's a feature costs the consumer more.  Hopefully they lose with Gsync and Adaptive Sync wins (which is looking likely.).

Any feature that nVidia has can be replaced by a third party sans PhysX.

AMD looks like they will also get 14nm Polaris out a few months before nVidia will get Pascal out to customers.  Additionally they'll be packing HBM2 so they will destroy nVidia for a couple of months while nVidia won't be able to answer.
Sadly I'm all to aware of AMD's ups and downs as well as Nvidia's questionable practices. I'm also far from being a fan of intel's gpus. In a perfect world we would get intel's cpu performance with AMD's gpu perfomance on a soc with ultra low tdp and stable drivers.
I'm very excited for the GDP win either way and can't wait to see the final product. I'm curious if the device will come with a demo version of windows or a full liscence release as seems to be the practice from alot of over seas manufacturers these days. Will also be curious to see what optimizations if any will be made to remove unneeded overheard from the device.

Last I read was MS was giving full free Home licenses for Windows when screens were under 10 inches.

Let's keep this debate civil phawx and note that only the sith deal in absolutes.

 Vcoleiro1 you are right we don't have tonnes of data to compare the docs in a like for like fashion. However the data collected on NBC is pretty useful in allowing us to see the broader details.

Take the best tablet with the proposed sku and compare it to the amd micro-6400t. Compare icestorm, a game and max power draw Then form your opinion.

Not about 14nm or 28nm or other superfluous things. Also herctnt, I can assure you that the amd drivers will be much better than Intel's.

I was being civil  ;) 

Also I agree with everything you've said.  Except I believe 14nm and 28nm is huge.  Look at current GPUs which have been stuck at 28nm for 5 years.  When high-end Polaris and Pascal come out, we'll finally be able to run the latest games at [email protected] on a single card.

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 16, 2016, 12:56:37 am
Let's keep this debate civil phawx and note that only the sith deal in absolutes.

 Vcoleiro1 you are right we don't have tonnes of data to compare the docs in a like for like fashion. However the data collected on NBC is pretty useful in allowing us to see the broader details.

Take the best tablet with the proposed sku and compare it to the amd micro-6400t. Compare icestorm, a game and max power draw Then form your opinion.

Not about 14nm or 28nm or other superfluous things. Also herctnt, I can assure you that the amd drivers will be much better than Intel's.
I admit to my ignorance when it comes to the mobile market. I know next to nothing. However, Unless you are making the drivers yourself or are part of the team that is, I take no assurances from anyone. On the desktop I can give you a list of games retail and mods alike that run for crap on AMD. I can even show you developers that refuse to support AMD due to its terrible gpu drivers. Now, that has nothing to do with mobile and I get that. I will keep my reservations until I see otherwise.

Phawx, I was unaware of MS's liscensing policy. I know its been a huge problem that alot of these Windows stick computers being sold do not have full copy's of windows and users are being hung out to dry. I know nothing, its just a concern based on problems I have seen on other devices.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 16, 2016, 01:07:13 am
Don't want to interject into the tangential AMD vs Intel discussion but I thought this was pertinent. It's a listing of various keyboard shortcuts available in Windows when typing on an Apple keyboard. Many(but not all) of these could be inherited without modification to the Win as they are. Chances are good GPD is going to use at least the Fn with arrow keys shortcuts for PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End anyways. Perhaps the Windows key instead of Fn could also behave as a shortcut initiator as well if needed.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202676 (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202676)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 16, 2016, 01:09:29 am
Yes it has been an issue for some PC sticks , generally as they don't have a screen and are not eligible for the free W10 under the small screen provision.


On a different note, something that hasn't really been talked about is that I believe MS also freely license Office to devices with small screens.   That should be a plus on the GPD WIN

Saber, here is the official MS Windows list of shortcuts:  http://windows.microsoft.com/en-au/windows-10/keyboard-shortcuts
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 16, 2016, 01:19:53 am
Saber, here is the official MS Windows list of shortcuts:  http://windows.microsoft.com/en-au/windows-10/keyboard-shortcuts
I've seen it. Anything in particular you want me to check out?

I'm actually more interested in shortcuts for the keys we are missing in the official render. Insert, Pause/Break, Scroll Lock, Print Screen, and Number Lock to name a few.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 16, 2016, 01:20:25 am
Let's keep this debate civil phawx and note that only the sith deal in absolutes.

 Vcoleiro1 you are right we don't have tonnes of data to compare the docs in a like for like fashion. However the data collected on NBC is pretty useful in allowing us to see the broader details.

Take the best tablet with the proposed sku and compare it to the amd micro-6400t. Compare icestorm, a game and max power draw Then form your opinion.

Not about 14nm or 28nm or other superfluous things. Also herctnt, I can assure you that the amd drivers will be much better than Intel's.
I admit to my ignorance when it comes to the mobile market. I know next to nothing. However, Unless you are making the drivers yourself or are part of the team that is, I take no assurances from anyone. On the desktop I can give you a list of games retail and mods alike that run for crap on AMD. I can even show you developers that refuse to support AMD due to its terrible gpu drivers. Now, that has nothing to do with mobile and I get that. I will keep my reservations until I see otherwise.

Phawx, I was unaware of MS's liscensing policy. I know its been a huge problem that alot of these Windows stick computers being sold do not have full copy's of windows and users are being hung out to dry. I know nothing, its just a concern based on problems I have seen on other devices.

I would like to see some of those games and research a few of those developers you mention. Also just another discussion point, who here has experience with intel atom drivers? I'll ask a few questions:

I have had 2 1st gen baytrail tablets and I haven't seen a driver/firmware update for it unless it is wrapped up in windows update.

I am just trying to chip away at some of the biases and understanding why you guys think amd is no good, atleast until the definitive soc has been chosen by gpd.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: HercTNT on February 16, 2016, 01:44:07 am
Monstercameron. I have replied to you in the offtopic section of this forum as my answer is not relevant to this thread and I do no wish to take it off topic any further.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on February 16, 2016, 10:30:29 am
Gpd has already chosen the intel cherrytrail, so i don't understand the discusi?n intel vs AMD. For me it's more importante the bad posici?n of analog sticks, similar to the pandora, which were pretty unusable for me. Dpad and front Button are to? close to the edge of the screen, which i personally don't like either.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 16, 2016, 11:52:25 pm
Translated my previous work by way of the online keyboard editor. I think it's a fairly reasonable layout given the sparse information gathered from the Chinese forum. Should be understandable as well(the Shoulder buttons shown are obviously on the back of the device).  ;)

http://i.imgur.com/M4MXXU3.png
(http://i.imgur.com/M4MXXU3.png)

(1) Brightness controls are Fn with Vo- and Vo+.
(2) Funct is the special Function key from the GPD XD. Funct will use a symbol for designation.
(3) The key in the lower right of the keyboard is Menu.
(4) Fn with arrow keys are PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End.
(5) If the GPD Win gets Android dual-boot, in the other OS the Escape key is "Back" and the Windows key becomes Android "Home".
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 18, 2016, 01:51:36 pm
Hey kendy, have you seen the latest keyboard designs?

(http://i.imgur.com/M4MXXU3.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/TJjxImJ.jpg)

How about incorporating one of them instead of the current one?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 18, 2016, 03:02:58 pm
Oh dear.... On Facebook someone showed kendy one of vic's designs and she said that the PCB design is nearly finished. She said she'll try to get the design team to look at it but It may be too late for us after all.....

EDIT: Wait vic, are you the one who posted your design over on FB? Didn't look at the name until now.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Alpibrine28 on February 18, 2016, 03:13:56 pm
Oh my god! Just a little device that you can fit into your pocket and it is able to play some mid-end games! It has a giant windows library and will probably be possible to run VMs on it. Can it be any better!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: crazyhorse2352 on February 18, 2016, 05:16:35 pm
   Does anyone know if binding of isaac can be played on one of these intel devices? if this can be played on the GPD Win i'm in!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: DrROBschiz on February 18, 2016, 05:51:17 pm
Wow like the most recent concept though it seems like it would be really awkward to play

Any reason why we NEED a keyboard on the controller? I would gladly just use a wireless or USB when I actually needed it

Im assuming these concepts have a touchscreen display?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 18, 2016, 05:56:35 pm
Wow like the most recent concept though it seems like it would be really awkward to play

Any reason why we NEED a keyboard on the controller? I would gladly just use a wireless or USB when I actually needed it

Im assuming these concepts have a touchscreen display?

I was initially against a keyboard but I've come round to it. From reading about the linx vision a lot of games with controller support wont start unless they detect a keyboard.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on February 18, 2016, 06:20:51 pm
Wow like the most recent concept though it seems like it would be really awkward to play

Any reason why we NEED a keyboard on the controller? I would gladly just use a wireless or USB when I actually needed it

Im assuming these concepts have a touchscreen display?
Generally makes the device a lot more accessible and usable. Lots of uses you would want a hardware keyboard built in as oppose to a virtual one. Say for emergency procedures; booting into special modes, recovery etc. It is somewhat inconvenient but I definitely think not having one would be a mistake.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: brushpicks11 on February 18, 2016, 09:11:00 pm
Any idea when this device might be available for pre-order? I'd love to be apart of the first people on this
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 18, 2016, 09:26:41 pm
   Does anyone know if binding of isaac can be played on one of these intel devices? if this can be played on the GPD Win i'm in!

Pretty sure it can run Binding of Isaac easily.

Any idea when this device might be available for pre-order? I'd love to be apart of the first people on this

Looking like Late Summer/Early Fall 2016


As a quick aside, I'm seeing some new names here, was there some article that was posted that people are finding this now?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 18, 2016, 09:31:41 pm
No idea when it will be up for pre-order, they have said that production is planned for Oct.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 18, 2016, 09:33:22 pm
Oh dear.... On Facebook someone showed kendy one of vic's designs and she said that the PCB design is nearly finished. She said she'll try to get the design team to look at it but It may be too late for us after all.....

EDIT: Wait vic, are you the one who posted your design over on FB? Didn't look at the name until now.

Yes it was me that posted it . Hopefully they can make some changes, we can only cross our fingers and hope.  I'd suggest if you want L3 and R3 near the sticks and the right column of keys moved like in my updated GPD keyboard design I posted, then jump onto facebook and like and support that post.  The facebook post is here:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=227798100896197&id=100009980260834&comment_id=227802340895773&reply_comment_id=227879317554742&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D


One thing apart from the points mentioned above that people haven't commented on , is that in GPDs current design , because of the right column of keys pushing the keyboard to the left, all the letter keys are on the left side of the WIN apart from K, L, O, and P.  Terrible if your right handed (like 90% of the world)or want to use both hands to use the keyboard.    Well unless you only have a left hand :)

Of course moving the right column of keys and expanding the main keyboard keys to fill its void , not only centres the keyboard, but it also allows you to have  larger keys.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 18, 2016, 10:21:26 pm
i am going to said this i wil hope the x5 8550 because intel change the WIFI its Intel dual band 5 ghz and the old is realteck single band 2.4 ghz and the new one its a little bit faster. they still  no mention about yhe WIFI.
So Vic what peoples are talking right now in baidu forums
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 19, 2016, 02:02:29 am
GPD's left-centric thumb layout: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg

What I'd like:
http://i.imgur.com/NsXDMW8.png
(http://i.imgur.com/NsXDMW8.png)
Note: Android "Back" is the Escape key and Android "Home" is the Windows key, and brightness is controlled by Fn with Vo- and Vo+.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 19, 2016, 02:52:25 am
Welcome for the new members and any concerns,just be free to let us know!!cause the Chinese Spring Festival,lots of our members is still on the vacation...so maybe there will not be updated information these days.once i get the update new.i will share with you all!!
Thanks so much for your kind and good recommendation.we all know its very good but sometime it may too idealization to realize it.cause we need to consider many,including the cost,the technology and so on...and for the L3,R3. cause this two key is not common like L1R1L2R2. and in order to save the cost at the same time.so we put them on the right side.we think this position in enough to use....And the design of PCB is nearly confirm now.so i am not sure these good design can be use or not.anyway i will try to do.Hope you could understand....
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 19, 2016, 05:46:07 am
Sigh...yes kendy we understand. Just too bad our voices weren't heard until it was too late.
It's a pretty big stretch to say that L3 and R3 (and to an extent Start and Select) can be considered useable in their current locations.
To be honest, either they all need to be in better locations closer to the rest of the game controls, or they just shouldn't exist at all. A lot of games will allow the use of a gamepad in addition to the keyboard so many of us will be forced to remap the L3, R3, Start, and Select functions to something on the keyboard anyway (most likely the number keys since they're closest). I guess them still existing will be good for the small set of games that don't allow any keymapping whatsoever, but they'll be difficult to use.

Anyway though, this will really only be a problem with FPSes and other quick-reflex games. I guess emulation as well for people playing games that use Start and Select as a major function (Monster Hunter).
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 19, 2016, 06:33:32 am
Well, I may as well share the email I had sent to GPD (ie kelvin) some time ago , anyway, this was it:


Hi,

I have put together a Keyboard layout for the GPD WIN which addresses a few issues noted by users on the Dingoonity forum.

This is it here:  http://i.imgur.com/pRK3gXE.jpg

(http://i.imgur.com/pRK3gXE.jpg)

The current GPD keyboard layout as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg)   has a few issues that the layout above fixes. These issues include:

1)  Because of the right column of keys (power, select, start, volume etc)   the keyboard has been shifted to the left, in fact the only letter keys on the right side of the device are the  K, L, O, and P keys .   As most people are right handed , this is an issue as it means people will be typing left handed.   The proposed keyboard layout moves the right column of keys to the center and expands the main keyboard so that it is centered.

2)  L3 and R3 are in unworkabe postions , the whole forum is in agreeance on this issue.  In the proposed layout above, L3 and R3 have been moved near the joysticks .

3)  The keys in the current layout are small , especially for westerners, I have a keyboard with similar sized keys and it takes practice to use without hitting 2 keys at once.  By expanding the main keyboard as in my proposal, the keys can now be made 8.6mm x 7.5mm in size .   This will greatly help reduce double key presses.

4) Keys that are missing in the current GPD keyboard layout , have been added in the above proposed keyboard layout.   Pg Up, Pg Down, Home and End have been added as function keys on the arrow keys.   Numpad keys have been added as secondary numpad labels on some main keyboard keys, they are shown in yellow.  To support the numpad key labels , a NumLock key has been added near the space bar.

5)  Keyboard and Mouse Mode enable/disable keys have been added in the center.

6)  LED lights shown as blue dots on the sides have been added in the proposed keyboard layout . These LEDs indicate: Power On, Caps on, NumLock On,  Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled
       

By the way, if it's technically not possible to put keys in between the sticks in the center. Then alternatively , the keys can be put in a similiar position as per http://i.imgur.com/fGPiI4I.jpg
(Saber , I forgot I had actually included this line, could have saved a few PM's :) )


Regards

Victor
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 19, 2016, 06:45:40 am
L3 and R3 are so usual buttons on windows games. they MUST be on a confortable place, or almost, in a place with easy access

is a BIG MISTAKE to put them on the right bar (well, the right bar is a mistake itself too, in my opinion)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 19, 2016, 07:32:53 am
Whats sad is that pretty much the entire forum has been in agreeance that the right column of keys needs to be moved(including L3/R3) and the keyboard  centered with bigger keys. We have been saying this since the moment that GPD showed their current design 2 months ago.  To think that they have only just seen this request, is puzzling.

It's pretty much the only thing this community has agreed on.

I really have no idea how GPD are going to overcome the obvious criticism they are going to get when people realize the keyboard is heavily pushed to the left and the only letter keys accessible to your right thumb are K, L, O and P. Especially seeing since 90% of the population is right handed.

Anyway, Kendy didn't completely rule out changes, so let's hope GPD can make these few changes.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 19, 2016, 02:52:14 pm
Welcome for the new members and any concerns,just be free to let us know!!cause the Chinese Spring Festival,lots of our members is still on the vacation...so maybe there will not be updated information these days.once i get the update new.i will share with you all!!
Thanks so much for your kind and good recommendation.we all know its very good but sometime it may too idealization to realize it.cause we need to consider many,including the cost,the technology and so on...and for the L3,R3. cause this two key is not common like L1R1L2R2. and in order to save the cost at the same time.so we put them on the right side.we think this position in enough to use....And the design of PCB is nearly confirm now.so i am not sure these good design can be use or not.anyway i will try to do.Hope you could understand....
Kendy, you need to communicate to Kit that the GPD Win is a handheld and as such:
1. Both thumbs should work in unison as a team.
2. Neither thumb should be overburdened in the task.

Your keyboard layout http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg has the left thumb doing most of the key input labor. The main keyboard is not centered like it should be for a device this size when balanced in the hands for optimum functionality. For whatever reason this has been ignored.

To visual, this is what Kit's prepared if the equivalent is applied to the gaming controls:
(http://i.imgur.com/MjyP1VN.png)

No competent person would be okay with the above. So why does GPD think it's acceptable to introduce the same deficiency with the keyboard when there are alternatives http://i.imgur.com/NsXDMW8.png offered suggesting only limited changes to the board?

It's February and the release date for the GPD Win is October. Acknowledge the critical mistake please GPD and fix it, because it's not worth saving some money today by not refining the pcb now only to incur those costs in the form of inevitable consumer disappointment later.

Let's get it right. ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 20, 2016, 10:52:25 pm
To highlight the issue I created the image below with GPDs current design.   Remember people will be wanting to use the keyboard with both thumbs and that 90% of the world population are right handed.  The balance doesn't need to be perfect, but obviously it needs to be better than this.



(http://i.imgur.com/V8kid2C.jpg)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 21, 2016, 12:27:55 am
To highlight the issue I created the image below with GPDs current design.   Remember people will be wanting to use the keyboard with both thumbs and that 90% of the world population are right handed.  The balance doesn't need to be perfect, but obviously it needs to be better than this.



(http://i.imgur.com/V8kid2C.jpg)
Sorry to also keep drumming on about this too but the other problem with GPD's atrocious design: http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg is the short proximity of the keys to the outer edges.

The fleshy part of the thumbs(called the thenar) will severely overlap and assuredly rest on the first two outermost columns of the extended keyboard. To illustrate, while casually holding the GPD XD I noticed the low corners are the most susceptible to unintentional contact when my thumbs hover on the L3 and R3 button positions(where the joysticks on the Win will be).  :-\
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 21, 2016, 01:02:10 am
Saber, I wrote a post a few pages back about a test I did on very similiar keyboards I have.   They have domed low profile keys with minimal spacing very very similiar to the KB GPD is planning to use.   It's almost impossible to press the keys with the fleshy base of your thumbs.   Even with that part resting on the keys, you literally need to squeeze the device as hard as you can for a key to be pressed.  That's because of a number of things, 1) that soft part you are referring to is just that - soft. 2) The keys need more pressure than my PC keyboard keys to press 3) The flesh base of your thumb is also spread across more than a point of area so that the pressure to surface area ratio is small.   

Hitting those keys is not a concern at all - it wont happen. 

At least that's one positive.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 21, 2016, 12:37:50 pm
Saber, I wrote a post a few pages back about a test I did on very similiar keyboards I have.   They have domed low profile keys with minimal spacing very very similiar to the KB GPD is planning to use.   It's almost impossible to press the keys with the fleshy base of your thumbs.   Even with that part resting on the keys, you literally need to squeeze the device as hard as you can for a key to be pressed.  That's because of a number of things, 1) that soft part you are referring to is just that - soft. 2) The keys need more pressure than my PC keyboard keys to press 3) The flesh base of your thumb is also spread across more than a point of area so that the pressure to surface area ratio is small.   

Hitting those keys is not a concern at all - it wont happen. 

At least that's one positive.
My wording may not of been accurate there. What I meant was a person will constantly "feel" those keys on their skin due to how that part of the thumb will rest on them(continuously). Can possibly get annoying after a long time and depending on how much pressure and the height of the keys, may leave an imprint.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 21, 2016, 12:53:15 pm
To highlight the issue I created the image below with GPDs current design.   Remember people will be wanting to use the keyboard with both thumbs and that 90% of the world population are right handed.  The balance doesn't need to be perfect, but obviously it needs to be better than this.



(http://i.imgur.com/V8kid2C.jpg)
I understand your point, but I don't think I will use both thumbs on it. I am not going to write a thesis on this device, but play games on it. The most likely scenario for keyboard usage is with your right thumb on the right analog in mouse-mode (to look around) and using your left thumb/hand to press keys such as WASD, space, alt etc. as if they were gamepad buttons. For that, I think this is a quite workable solution...

It will surely not be very pleasant for writing a novel on, but who is really going to do that?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: irwannasit on February 21, 2016, 01:26:07 pm
This setup would be nice.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/191565fa0c21fc89ee8550e149d0bb26.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 21, 2016, 01:56:38 pm
Not writing a paper is one thing, however don't speak for everyone who wants to use this for casual use. Using both thumbs is always faster than only one and when I'm web surfing, typing comments, and chatting, I'd rather type with speed.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 21, 2016, 11:33:50 pm
To highlight the issue I created the image below with GPDs current design.   Remember people will be wanting to use the keyboard with both thumbs and that 90% of the world population are right handed.  The balance doesn't need to be perfect, but obviously it needs to be better than this.



(http://i.imgur.com/V8kid2C.jpg)
I understand your point, but I don't think I will use both thumbs on it. I am not going to write a thesis on this device, but play games on it. The most likely scenario for keyboard usage is with your right thumb on the right analog in mouse-mode (to look around) and using your left thumb/hand to press keys such as WASD, space, alt etc. as if they were gamepad buttons. For that, I think this is a quite workable solution...

It will surely not be very pleasant for writing a novel on, but who is really going to do that?
Novel, unlikely, but for many individuals numerous sentences or paragraphs at a spell, certainly. For students and professionals the GPD Win might of been an asset, if the keyboard wasn't destined to be so tragically impaired, but alas it wasn't in the cards this go round. I do hope once GPD recouped financially from the first iteration's sales they'll add a touch of sensibility next time.

Also eager to know which keys GPD will appoint left click and right click while in mouse mode. Seems to be need to know information we aren't privy to yet. Perhaps they've planned the opposing stick to be mouse buttons, like on the Pandora, where left direction was left click and right was right click. :P
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on February 21, 2016, 11:44:16 pm
I've lost all interest after seeing the chosen layout. I'll wait to GPD Win 2 (or not)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 22, 2016, 12:44:36 am
Yes, if they do a trash is btter to lived in the trash can. I do not understand their philosofy.No information ,just references, no the right person, don't take personal Kendy,and all the comments and ideas for nothing, I was the one to supplay the information to CNXsoft after that came others, softpedia, liliputing,etc,and  others mayors websites like freaktab, linustechtips, but no thanks, that is ok ,i dont expect nothing, so i am going stop to disclose more information because i dont speak chinese and not information at all, just references.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: monstercameron on February 23, 2016, 11:27:11 pm
This silence isn't good, all the good will and interest is dissipating. Is the team still on holiday?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 23, 2016, 11:31:54 pm
This silence isn't good, all the good will and interest is dissipating. Is the team still on holiday?
Since there was no new information, I think it's best we save all of our hype to pre-release. This is just concept and pre-production stage, after all.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on February 24, 2016, 02:19:37 am
The REAL question, is are we getting the XD sticks, or some fucking sliders?  Sliders are a non starter.  I will go family guy ape shit at the nearest starbucks if after all this, they went with sliders...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: shinkamui on February 24, 2016, 02:23:08 am
*edit*
its the same thing, whoops.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 24, 2016, 04:17:35 am
One bit of news is that GPD  started a facebook page for the GPD WIN yesterday. 

This is it here: https://www.facebook.com/4GPDWin/
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 24, 2016, 06:26:43 am
We specially made a page for GPD WIN:https://www.facebook.com/4GPDWin/
Hope you could like it.All information related with GPD WIN,I will share on this page.And keep watching this space,exciting new coming soon!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 24, 2016, 07:10:54 am
On that page all the comments are super-positive, even tough the shown design is the same... I really don't think they have fucked up too badly at all. It's a shame they won't go with the revised SOC tough, but I don't really care either way.

I just hope it will be about 150 dollars like the XD... Then I will buy one...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 24, 2016, 07:24:45 am
4 or 5 commenters , only one has made a positive comment so far, the rest have posted questions. To be honest , not many people have seen the keyboard layout. We have only seen one image of it on this forum recently. And it's not on that facebook page - so I wouldn't expect there to be comments on what people can't see anyway.

Look it's cool to be super positive with GPD as you have been going back to the GPD XD.  But remember , positivity won't fix real issues.   It's better that these issues are pointed out now and are fixed rather than having GPD spend the next 8 months developing the WIN with those issues and then heart breakingly see it trashed in reviews resulting in poor sales. 

If it was IMO a minor issue, i'd say eh, what ever, but to me it just says trouble , big trouble.  I have a small keyboard as Ive explained before, using both thumbs is the way you type on them.  Having to almost exclusively use your left thumb doesn't slow things down by half, it slows things down by more than that as with most people , its not my dominate hand , and it feels very alien to have to use the keyboard with your left thumb only. Strange thing is, if they had of put the right column of keys on the left side, it would have balanced things nicely.  There would still be issues with the L3/R3 positions and the size of the keys, but it would have solved the lop sidedness of the KB.



Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 24, 2016, 07:34:35 am
4 or 5 commenters , only one has made a positive comment so far, the rest have posted questions. To be honest , not many people have seen the keyboard layout. We have only seen one image of it on this forum recently. And it's not on that facebook page - so I wouldn't expect there to be comments on what people can't see anyway.

Look it's cool to be super positive with GPD as you have been going back to the GPD XD.  But remember , positivity won't fix real issues.   It's better that these issues are pointed out now and are fixed rather than having GPD spend the next 8 months developing the WIN with those issues and then heart breakingly see it trashed in reviews resulting in poor sales.

I 100% agree. I still wonder some things - it's a shame they have not put the new SOC in, and I wonder if it won't be too expensive, I am seriously concerned about heat etc.

But as for the keyboard, I concurr (like before) that it will be shit for typing. All I said was, I think that for gaming, this layout is better. You use your LEFT thumb/hand for pushing WASD (mostly) and your right thumb for the right analog in mouse-mode. If the keyboard is more to teh right, and thus geared for right-hand usage, this would be majorly uncomfortable. So for that reason alone, I think it's better if the keyboard is more to the left, like now. Otherwise it will be next to impossible to keep your left thumb on WASD and your right thumb on the right analog.

Same for L3 R3 - in it's current possition you can easily put right finger on the L3 and left finger on the left analog for running (like in 99% of windows games use it for). This is impossible practically on the GPD XD, so I am happy they moved those two buttons over there. On the XD it's not really a problem because the only android games I know that use it are the GTA ones, for horn and I forgot R3. Not being able to horn while steering is not that bad. but for gamestreaming on the XD the positioning of L3 and R3 is shite, and I think right side down is an improvement simply because you can easily press them while using the joystick they belong too. At least L3, not R3, but that is usually used ofr singular actions like zooming, so it's no problem.

Again, for typing the keyboard will be shit-tier positioned, I just think it makes it more comfortable for gaming for the reasons listed above, and if I have to choose between the two, gaming takes preference for me simply because it's a game device.

I still will wait for reviews, because of heat, build quality, price, and everything esle that could still go wrong (battery life, performance, you name it), and in fact am <50% certain I will even buy one (it might be too expensive, or too low performance for windows games in which case I rather keep my XD, easier emulation and such).

So I don't think I am being TOO positive lol, I just think the keyboard layout makes for comfortable gaming...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 24, 2016, 07:49:34 am
Well there's two uses for the keyboard and two markets GPD are clearly going for:

1)  It's use in games .  In games, I have no plans what so ever to use WASD, nor do I think most people will use WASD.  Though I'm sure some will.   Mind you, due to the right column of keys squeezing the size of the main keyboard keys, the WASD keys will be smaller than they could be if the right column is moved.
If there is a game that used WASD, I'd map it to the dpad.  Not that centering and expanding the keyboard ruins access to WASD anyway, look at my proposal , they are still close to the left side and in easy reach of your left thumb http://i.imgur.com/pRK3gXE.jpg

As for L3/R3, well each to their own, but I think I can say that most people hate  L3/R3 in the positions they currently are in.   IMO, they are far better put near the sticks .

For me and a lot of people that play genres of games that require the keyboard heavily, it will be to use all the keys mapped to certain functions.  For example, look at t he keyboard mapping for flight sim :  https://flyawaysimulation.com/images/downloadshots/17797-fsxkypmlzip-2-fsx-keyboard-commands-page-jpg.jpg



2)  GPD are clearly aiming the WIN to also attract the UMPC market,  as you can see by their marketing for it.  Not just the ad Kendy posted above, but also the one prior which said in chinese "Handheld PC with full keyboard including punctuation keys".   

As a UMPC, a balanced keyboard is critical, and you have seen a number of people comment in that regard already just recently in this thread.   

As for price, like everyone, I'd like it be affordable to.  But for it to be $!50 is probably pushing it, remember the WIN base model will have 64GB , now remember that the 64GB XD is $190 currently (was more at release)  .  Then ad all the other extras like 4GB ram , Intel SOC, bigger screen , yada yada yada. Not looking good for $150.  Hard to say what it will be, and component prices do come down also.  But as it is now, if were to be released today.  Id hope they could do $200 , but fear it would be $250 or more
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 24, 2016, 08:56:25 am
Hm, yeah that layout does look more balanced for the keyboard... altough I would reverse the l3 and r3 buttons. It might look strange to have l3 right and r3 left, but with those layout, it's literally impossible (like on the XD) to press L3 while using left analog, meaning you can not sprint in fps games, meaning they are basically unplayable... with l3 on right column at least they can be played (it's why'd I prefer that). I do like your positioning better, but again, if they are inverted so you can use left hand to use analog and use right hand to press l3. How else cna you sprint? XD

As for the price... I share your opinion... which is why I am doubtfull I will actually buy one at the end. My biggest disadvantage I see is probably that the windows interface will be awkward on this screen. the biggest advantage I see is full compatibility with hundreds of GOG games which are ultra-cheap and tons of which have controller support. Kind of like  you had an windows 98 emulator on the XD if you may. but I don't think  I will spend 250 dollars just for that... and I have a gaming pc for modern games. which also runs gog. I also have a custom build athlon-2600x with 2 gb ram, a geforce 7900 and windows xp for those games that only run on that, and a custum build pentium 2-350 with 128 mb ram, a matrox g400 32 mb and windows 98 for games that don't run on XP. I even have a dos 8 mhz 286 with a cute turbo button to make it 16, and a whopping 960 kb of ram and vga graphics. Great for simcity! That realism! Those graphics with the tiny cars... those pc speaker sounds making your ears bleed... it kind of lags a little in wolfenstein 3d but it's very playable lol.

In other words, I can already play literally every pc games ever known to mankind on *something*, lessing my interest in this. ESPECIALLY since a lot of those gog games also have playstation 1 versions I can run perfectly on the XD...

One  positive tough: intel likes selling SOCS Under their price, so if they manage to get some cheap dump-components, it might be affordable after all... I hope. :) They atleast already have the batteries!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 24, 2016, 01:38:33 pm
Hm, yeah that layout does look more balanced for the keyboard... altough I would reverse the l3 and r3 buttons. It might look strange to have l3 right and r3 left, but with those layout, it's literally impossible (like on the XD) to press L3 while using left analog, meaning you can not sprint in fps games, meaning they are basically unplayable... with l3 on right column at least they can be played (it's why'd I prefer that). I do like your positioning better, but again, if they are inverted so you can use left hand to use analog and use right hand to press l3. How else cna you sprint? XD
Although I'm partial to my layout: http://i.imgur.com/RwvFOd9.png it's apparent GPD won't heed suggestions. Not to be unjustly critical but since they've chosen here to fervently peddle their wares, I'd like to repeat that for handheld typing the Win won't be stellar, nor for gaming will it be exemplary. The failings of the keyboard(smallness, quantity, positioning) aside, the gaming aspect dissatisfies where Start and Select or L3 and R3 are affixed. The low, low right flank isn't the premier spot for pushing game buttons.

Despite all that, the Win's uniqueness and presumed affordability will garner plenty of merited sales.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on February 24, 2016, 02:12:36 pm
Maybe it's cheaper to produce? they know something we don't?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 24, 2016, 03:01:40 pm
it is disappointing that you decided to not replace the x5-Z8500 for the x5-Z8550.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 24, 2016, 03:56:02 pm
To be honest, I feel that if they go with their current keyboard layout and the Z8500 they'll only be moderately successful and only if the price is $200 or lower. Reviews will not be kind to the keyboard and the right column.
UMPC enthusiasts will be pissed at the shite keyboard placement and gamers looking to play their PC games on the go or somewhere else in the house will hate the placement of the Start, Select, L3, and R3 buttons.
The only people I feel would be happy with this are those who ONLY want to play on emulators (after remapping Start and Select) and very light web browsing, which they can just do on the XD or any other Android handheld for much less money.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: redlemon on February 24, 2016, 04:10:07 pm
My main hope for it is playing indie games so it's still a useful device for me since 2d games aren't going to make use of l3/r3 (I'd still prefer them beside the sticks though). Windows gaming variety is absolutely huge these days so I think its a mistake to discount the device on unsuitability for certain genre's.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: BlazingSoul on February 24, 2016, 04:32:17 pm
VERY DISAPPOINTED. Why not use the Z8550.  It is more powerful, cooler, and has more features than the Z8500 for the SAME PRICE!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 24, 2016, 05:08:24 pm
Where was it confirmed that they are using the 8500 and not the 8550?  If the 8550 replaces the 8500 maybe they ARE using the 8550?  Kendy also made this post which sounded like she was almost using 8550/8500 interchangeably:

About the cooling for GPD Win,Cause for 8500/8550,this chip calorific value is not be huge and the power consumption is also low,so we may add a Heat Sink in the device.and the mold is also easy to cooling.we think it is enough for cooling.Please do not worry about it.we have consider carefully and test for the cooling.please trust me.we always want and try to make a prefect console for you all.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 24, 2016, 05:18:36 pm
Intel is not making anymore the x5 8500 old SOC,maybe until run out,or GPD has some from another OEM but in the feature they have to buy the x5  8550 for sure.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 24, 2016, 05:20:15 pm
Intel is not making anymore the x5 8500 old SOC,maybe until run out,or GPD has some from another OEM but in the feature they have to buy the x5  8550 for sure.

Exactly.  The only reason it seems like they would (or even could) be using the 8500 is if they found a big ol' supply of ones for super cheap.  Which I guess is possible.  Again though, people are talking like 8500 is 100% confirmed.  Where is that coming from?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on February 24, 2016, 05:56:38 pm
It's not confirmed, in fact they will most probably use the 8550 because it will be the one available to buy when they develop the product.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 24, 2016, 07:34:50 pm
It's a shame they won't go with the revised SOC tough, but I don't really care either way.

i was mistaken. i checked the facebook page. there is no information about the SoC there. they will probably buy x5-Z8550 SoCs for GPD WIN.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 08:14:42 am
GPD WIN is on Indiegogo. They are looking to raise $100,000

Price of the GPD WIN is $299

Those keyboard layout indent issues sure look a lot worse at $299 . 
Kendy, if your reading this, I suggest getting someone to proof read your Indiegogo page. The English is not good

Check it below

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2#/


(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,h_413,w_620/v1456307685/zjtrldvga7knjk0f5rdr.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 25, 2016, 08:24:50 am
Actually, their MSRP is $499, with a backer-exclusive $299.

I'm not sure as to why they're going to indiegogo with it, as they're a large company. Crowdsourcing is really the wrong way to approach this thing, as it implies they don't really trust their own product and want the consumers to create a safety net for them. I don't know about this anymore.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 25, 2016, 08:26:23 am
GPD WIN is on Indiegogo. They are looking to raise $100,000

Price of the GPD WIN is $299

Check it below

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2#/


(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,h_413,w_620/v1456307685/zjtrldvga7knjk0f5rdr.jpg)

Thanks so much for you sharing!!We made a campaign on INDIEGOGO for GPD WIN.Hope you can support us and keep it going!!Thanks so much!! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2/x/13166053#/
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 08:36:56 am
Actually, their MSRP is $499, with a backer-exclusive $299.

I'm not sure as to why they're going to indiegogo with it, as they're a large company. Crowdsourcing is really the wrong way to approach this thing, as it implies they don't really trust their own product and want the consumers to create a safety net for them. I don't know about this anymore.

Yeh, I doubt that will actually be their MSRP though, it's not uncommon strategy to put an inflated MSRP price to get backers to back the Indiegogo.. 

In regards to the Indiegogo. they have been speaking about doing a crowdfunding on the Baidu forum, it's just that no one mentioned it here.    Personally , I think they are rushing it badly.   They have gone from hey someone sent us an idea 2 months ago, to here is the final design and its up on  Indiegogo.  The Keyboard layout hasn't been fixed, and by going now they had to say they are using the Z8500 which intel have told us there is graphics issues with .  Hopefully they end up going with the Z8550.

The Indiegogo page really really needs an English speaker to edit it.  It's not good at the moment , and makes the campaign look bad. Kendy, it's not a laptop by the way, what you actually want to use to refer to it is: UMPC . UMPC stands for Ultra Mobile PC.   It's a category of devices which the WIN is.   I suggest you correct that. Saying its a laptop is wrong and to be blunt , comes across badly.  Basically you should be marketing it as a Handheld UMPC/Gaming Console
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: crazyhorse2352 on February 25, 2016, 08:38:33 am
  This looks awesome! so what they are using indiegogo, i'm backing it!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on February 25, 2016, 08:44:02 am
Did they not make enough from the GPD XD and other GPD stuff?

This seems to imply they don't really have confidence in the product and want people to invest in it before they put it on the market.

Seems fishy and considering a lot of peoples reservations with things like the keyboard, button placements and a few other things I have doubt this will make the goal, but will that matter? Will they release it anyway or give up completely? Very strange.

I for one won't be backing I don't think.

Question: Does indiegogo fund only if it makes the goal or whatever they get?
Edit: Looks like they get whatever is donated to the campaign, this seems like a bad thing  ???
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: mr.white on February 25, 2016, 08:45:09 am
Seems to be everything has been decided already and they going with indiegogo. Just wondering how good Dolphin would run on this specs?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 08:47:49 am
@Lax, They have nominated it to be a flexible campaign, which  means they get the money regardless of making the $100K target or not.

By the way, they also mentioned doing a crowdfunder for the GPD XD2 on the baidu forum if I remember correctly
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on February 25, 2016, 08:49:03 am
Question: Does indiegogo fund only if it makes the goal or whatever they get?
Whatever they get.

Also, seeing as communication with GPD was not successful in the past (sorry kendy, but we haven't seen any result of the large amount of community input provided) I doubt indiegogo will be different. It's more than likely just a big preorder page, with the obligatory "Donate $5 to a large corporation" button. It raises far more questions than it answers, or than it should.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 08:51:11 am
At least worldwide shipping is included in the $299.

Delivery is in October
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on February 25, 2016, 08:53:11 am
I just wish they put some investment in a fluent Chinese/English speaker/writer marketing person who understand the market, it would do them a world of good in terms of community feedback and support from the western world as well as their product marketing making more sense.

I'm surprised more companies like them don't, I guess they just don't care that much about the market?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 25, 2016, 10:07:12 am
bad thing...

i don?t consider crowdfounding is the way to produce this device, because crowdfounding is oriented to little projects with little company to become real, and GPD is a big company that don?t requires this to develop this device.

i think GPD got so many interested on their product without doing this crowdfunding campaign. GPD-XD help to GPD to become on the point of view of many users that don?t know about this company, and thanks to the good work on XD so many users are so confident with this manufacturer, and any new product that they release will be received with confidence.

i really want to get a GPD-Win for me, but i will not be backer on Indiegogo. I prefer to get the device on the market to get one of them (except if i can get some unit for testing, of course)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 10:24:46 am
There's a number of negatives with the campaign on Indiegogo:

1)  It's Indiegogo rather than Kickstarter, there may be good reasons for that, but it does limit the audience that will back the project.

2)  It's a flexible campaign, people hate flexible campaigns, it means they get the cash regardless of if they reach the target amount or not.  Most people dislike this, and it will mean a number of people will not back it.

3)  There is no prototype, most people will not back a crowd funding campaign unless they show a working prototype.  In fact this is why they are on Indiegogo, as Kickstarter requires a working prototype.

4) There is no video showing the team talking about the project .  Without seeing the team behind the project and hearing and seeing them talk about the project , a lot of people will not back this project. It comes  across as amateurish and non sincere.

5)  The bad English and Grammar make it look bad, combine this with the points above and it doesn't look good.  A lot of people will be put off from investing $299 into a campaign where the English/Grammar comes across as un professional and amateurish.

6)  $299 is a lot, that will  put of a lot of people in of itself.


Would you invest $299 in a campaign with no video or prototype and with the only description being some text in poor English/Grammar . Add to that the fact the campaign is on Indiegogo and is set as a flexible campaign where they get your cash regardless of reaching the target or not.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 25, 2016, 10:29:13 am
Smash Zero fail on their kickstarter campaign precisely because the lack of a functional prototype to show.
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: mr.white on February 25, 2016, 10:35:52 am
Crowfunding is a no go for me since the icontrol pad 2 decaster. Also they can keep the money with Indiegogo even if they don't reach the goal and do with it whatever they want to do.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on February 25, 2016, 11:29:54 am
and the device after presale (so retial) will be 500 dollras! FIVE HUNDRED! WTF!!?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 25, 2016, 12:59:41 pm
and the device after presale (so retial) will be 500 dollras! FIVE HUNDRED! WTF!!?
Unlikely it will retail at that tier. Marketing principle of list price vs actual to get you to pounce on the incredible offer. With your support act now and we'll also give you ten virtual high fives. :D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 25, 2016, 01:05:42 pm
The $5 backer tier sounds so enticing

"$5 USD
Free support
A huge Thank you for your kind and free support,after the success of the project, sponsor will not send you return."


Um what?.   I know what they are trying to say (I think), but seriously .


To be honest, I'm really worried that this campaign will fail to get many backers for the reasons I gave in my last post ie the campaign is terrible.   I'm worried that if it does fail to get many backers, that GPD will think it's because people don't want the WIN, rather than the truth , which is the campaign is terrible. I can see them then cancelling the product.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 25, 2016, 01:37:27 pm
usually, projects that they are know after releasing on any crowdfunding campaign, when released on kickstarter or similar get so many backers on it. in fact, first few days (even, first hours) are so important because there is the main people that will give support, that really become a backer.

for now, there is only 1 backer for the project, and i 100% agree with vcoleiro1 that this may give to GPD the wrong perception that the device don?t get the interest of people, when is not true.

the device have so much interest on people

What wrong with this campaign?
Indiegogo give not a good feeling on users to be backers. (most users prefer kickstarter for backing projects)
Price. One of the most intersting things of the device was the suggested release price at $300 aprox.
Now, the price is $500... and is a very high price that most users will not reach. for 500$ you can buy a decent computer/laptop with similar power... and yes, is not the same concept (in fact, i prefer a micro-sized pc for most stuff), but most "normal" users will compare what they can get with this, and most will prefer a new laptop instead a micro-computer.


I'm so sure that is GPD release their current GPD-XD device, but mounting any intel SoC (baytrail, cherrytrail, no matter), can keep good prices (similar to current GPD-XD, maybe), and will be a success. This new device, this micro-computer would be the next step, but GPD prefer to do now...  and they are doing wrong (in my opinion)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 25, 2016, 04:02:11 pm
Another retake on the Win's layout using the Indiegogo as a guide:

http://i.imgur.com/g6Bdv9w.png
(http://i.imgur.com/g6Bdv9w.png)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 25, 2016, 04:10:44 pm
There is a FAQ on the bottom of the indiegogo page where they say they will upgrade to the 8550 if they can find the supply for it.

Which probably means it won't happen. But there is a small chance to hope.

Also two things.

1.) I don't fully believe that "savings" stuff.  It's especially MORE shit when you see the price for multiple units, which is only a $10 savings regardless of which tier you buy. 

2.) I think they went with indiegogo because even if they don't reach their goal, they can still take the money put into it (but indiegogo's take increases to 9%)  If they make the goal it's 1% cheaper than kickstarter.

Additionally, putting it on indiegogo is PR on it's own.  I think they'll hit the goal.

I was expecting $300 to be at the high-end to price it at.  And since it includes free shipping, I
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 25, 2016, 04:22:17 pm
The WIFI is the old realteck wireless network a 2.4ghz abgn.No dual band 5ghz or A/C.
No the x5 8550.
For that $299 the SOC core m or the x7.
No go for me to much speculations,sorry next time.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 25, 2016, 04:34:39 pm
Hey guys,

there is a comment section on the indiegogo page.  You should probably voice your concerns there

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2/x/13465446#/comments

If enough people comment, perhaps they'll take the advice
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on February 25, 2016, 04:38:06 pm
Hey guys,

there is a comment section on the indiegogo page.  You should probably voice your concerns there

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2/x/13465446#/comments

If enough people comment, perhaps they'll take the advice

People have been complaining about the keyboard since day 1 here on arguably the biggest western board for these devices that GPD is active on, doubt they'd listen but its worth a go.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 25, 2016, 04:41:33 pm
Hey guys,

there is a comment section on the indiegogo page.  You should probably voice your concerns there

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-laptop-fitting-in-your-pocket--2/x/13465446#/comments

If enough people comment, perhaps they'll take the advice

People have been complaining about the keyboard since day 1 here on arguably the biggest western board for these devices that GPD is active on, doubt they'd listen but its worth a go.

I have to agree.  But we gotta try!  haha.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 25, 2016, 04:52:25 pm
Like I've said on the post about the indiegogo, I've lost interest; it's just way too expensive. Especially considering all the major design flaws that are just staring at us all straight in the face and the weak specs. For the retail price of $500 you could get TWO Teclast tablets with the exact same internal specs, but with bigger, higher resolution screens. Pretty sure they have dualboot, too, for the people who like that.
Just so weird for them to do a crowdfunder, and then not set it up properly. Like Vic said, they need an English speaker to fix everything.
They also need to call this a Gaming UMPC. Them just slapping a laptop moniker on it suggests to me that GPD doesn't even know what the hell they're trying to sell. And obviously, where's the video and the prototype? Even if they're not an upstart trying to sell people on their idea, they need a prototype. Actually, considering the fact that they are already an established, successful company, a crowdfunder should ONLY be started once they've had the entire product comoleted and ready for production.
But yeah, I expected this to be cheaper. Would've bought and then in the future buy a Dragonbox Pyra for a dedicated, matured Linux machine and because I love all the amazing and beautiful design solutions that ED and his team created for their product. Now, I don't know. I'll just keep on watching to see if GPD learns from their mistakes.


EDIT: They do refer to it as a UMPC in the specs sheet, so theres that. I think they only labeled it as a Laptop because they want to give people the idea of a "laptop in your pocket". Also, at that price why no clicky sticks? And what is the hall sensor for. The only time I've heard of that is with ED referring to that technology for use in putting L3 and R3 on the Pyra's analog nubs, something I didn't think was possible.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Skelton-retired on February 25, 2016, 05:37:22 pm
500 bucks is just crazy. I don't understand what GPD is doing lately to be honest....
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 25, 2016, 05:44:48 pm
...
Also, at that price why no clicky sticks? And what is the hall sensor for. The only time I've heard of that is with ED referring to that technology for use in putting L3 and R3 on the Pyra's analog nubs, something I didn't think was possible.
The thickness of the Win was likely the determining factor for why no center clicks for the joysticks, and also a probable reason no buttons were put in the upper middle. The Win is roughly the same dimensions as the XD except for the width at 9.7cm, which is a bit too wide for my jacket's pocket. :'(

As for the price, the Win probably won't ever be set as high as the suggested price. This isn't Apple, Asus, or Microsoft. It's the same thing when you sticker check a new car. Best guess is around $300 or more for the 64GB and $400 for the 128GB option when available.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on February 25, 2016, 05:47:17 pm
500 bucks is just crazy. I don't understand what GPD is doing lately to be honest....

@Saber is right.  You'll see this device being listed at $499$299 everywhere.  :-)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on February 25, 2016, 06:45:15 pm
Kendy and GPD, concerning mouse switch mode: http://i.imgur.com/juq3eAV.jpg please no "lose function" for Dpad and XYAB.

Would rather Dpad and XYAB buttons stay active for retrogaming.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: wermy on February 25, 2016, 09:05:54 pm
Kendy and GPD, concerning mouse switch mode: http://i.imgur.com/juq3eAV.jpg please no "lose function" for Dpad and XYAB.

Would rather Dpad and XYAB buttons stay active for retrogaming.

Yeah that stuck out to me as well.  Why would they do it that way?  Is there a reason *not* to keep the d-pad and abxy buttons active when the stick is acting as a mouse?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 26, 2016, 07:29:49 am
Thanks so much for your kind concerns and support for GPD WIN.I know there is many member do not satisfactory with the keyboard layout.I will try my best to suggest to fix it.But i am not sure.Cause this is decide by our production team and maybe they have their own concerns.Hope you all could understand.

And about the price.Yes,we expect for $499.cause the cost,high platform fee and high tax just like VAT.we have to decide this price.But don't worry.we will often hold discount activity and giving discount coupons.And now you also can pre-order it with $299 and free shipping with DHL at the same time.so it can save $200 at least.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: flowrellik on February 26, 2016, 08:04:22 am
in any case I hope you and your team will succeed.
Finally, a system that can allow me to play even MORE of my favorite games on the go.. That is a dream come true right there :), and it has been succeeded before with previous products thanks to GPD!
Now one thing concerns me, will the overall graphics card handle games like say TF2 or graphic type games?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 26, 2016, 08:11:13 am
but the cost include customs taxes?
if you send via DHL, the package will be stopped 100% almost here in spain, and they open the device.
my last GPD-XD cost to me 38? of custom taxes... (and the package come declared by 20usd)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: tekkendp on February 26, 2016, 04:55:40 pm
My concern is how are they going to print the characters on the keys and buttons. The white lines on the joypad of my GPD XD have already disappeared, and the print on the four buttons is fading fast. On the GPD XD, it's no big deal, but on this device with a keyboard, more so. And if they are really asking $499 - this has suddenly made the Pyra much more interesting. As the small amount of software you get is tailored to get the very best out of the device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 26, 2016, 05:04:36 pm
What are the platform fees?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Dingoonityer on February 26, 2016, 05:22:41 pm
SNESFAN,

it is not blown out of proportion. that man is immoral and does not keep his word.

regarding the SoC,

according to the project planning schedule that can be found here (http://obscurehandhelds.com/2016/02/gpd-are-back-with-something-a-little-different/), this month, the part procurement is currently taking place.

it is probably too late to replace the x5-Z8500 for the x5-Z8550.

there are two questions,

if it is too late, will they use the x5-Z8550 after they have sold all the quantity of SoCs that they have ordered? will they replace it with the new Atom SoCs that have Skylake GPUs once those can be ordered?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 27, 2016, 02:49:37 am
Hm....for $300 I might consider getting this, but can't throw down $300 right now. If the price ever drops that low again after release I'll consider, but the keyboard layout and the use of the Z8500 instead of the Z8550 makes it a difficult decision.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on February 27, 2016, 03:40:36 am
Hm....for $300 I might consider getting this, but can't throw down $300 right now. If the price ever drops that low again after release I'll consider, but the keyboard layout and the use of the Z8500 instead of the Z8550 makes it a difficult decision.
.
And dont forget about the WIFI,no fully gamestreaming capabilities,as far  i read if  the get x5 8550 it come with intel wireless network dual band 5 ghz.
I still thinkiing; old single band WIFi i dont ge it, the SOC x5 800, not for the x5 8550 is the one to be available right now, and the keyboard, i think if the change those facts their campaing is going to be sussecsfully.
I do still thinking
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 27, 2016, 08:53:25 am
but the cost include customs taxes?
if you send via DHL, the package will be stopped 100% almost here in spain, and they open the device.
my last GPD-XD cost to me 38? of custom taxes... (and the package come declared by 20usd)

Yes,The retail price is include customs taxes!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on February 27, 2016, 09:03:42 am
What are the platform fees?

It is like Amazon,Ebay, AliExpress and other oversea platform.It's normal charge 15%.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: acid on February 27, 2016, 05:15:41 pm
Wait, this thing is going to cost 499 dollars?  Hahaha are you guys nuts? It's going to tank.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on February 27, 2016, 05:36:31 pm
What are the platform fees?

It is like Amazon,Ebay, AliExpress and other oversea platform.It's normal charge 15%.

Oooh okay, that's understandable then.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on February 27, 2016, 05:47:43 pm
Wait, this thing is going to cost 499 dollars?  Hahaha are you guys nuts? It's going to tank.
Yeah I agree. Even though I would probably stretch to that, I feel like 99% of the target market wouldn't. At $500, this won't succeed imo.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on February 29, 2016, 08:42:23 am
My concern is how are they going to print the characters on the keys and buttons. The white lines on the joypad of my GPD XD have already disappeared, and the print on the four buttons is fading fast. On the GPD XD, it's no big deal, but on this device with a keyboard, more so. And if they are really asking $499 - this has suddenly made the Pyra much more interesting. As the small amount of software you get is tailored to get the very best out of the device.

Same problem here... A blind keyboard doesn't soud great

Edit: I just saw a Pyra handheld keyboard image... It's just so nice:
(https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/attachments/dsc02881-jpg.27912/)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on February 29, 2016, 10:30:22 am
The Indiegogo says they are using double character silk screen printing for the button labels
They made a point of it in there campaign description
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on February 29, 2016, 06:09:19 pm
An update went out to indiegogo backers.  They are upgrading the full USB port on the back to USB-C.  Hopefully it's fully connected so we could make use of USB-C > Display Port.

In any event, this upgrade brings me a little bit of hope that they are taking some consideration in design changes before launching.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on February 29, 2016, 09:28:42 pm
no, this is a bad news.

the correct way they must do is replace the MicroUSB by USB Type-C, and keeps the USB Type-A

users don?t want to carry the device plus adaptators to plug devices to the GPD-Win
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on March 01, 2016, 12:37:20 am
no, this is a bad news.

the correct way they must do is replace the MicroUSB by USB Type-C, and keeps the USB Type-A

users don?t want to carry the device plus adaptators to plug devices to the GPD-Win

I agree with you but right now I'm just happy that they are doing some revisions.  Just hoping they will go a bit further.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on March 01, 2016, 12:42:20 am
but they're doing bad revisions.

what GPD must do is to fix the keyboard, or almost, put L3 and R3 in some place more comfortable for playing, and stop touching the good things that the device have.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Saber on March 01, 2016, 12:57:35 am
but they're doing bad revisions.

what GPD must do is to fix the keyboard, or almost, put L3 and R3 in some place more comfortable for playing, and stop touching the good things that the device have.
Maybe they hired George Lucas. It would explain a lot on how GPD could go from the XD(which is phenomenal) to the devolution of the Win. I really hope they stop listening to whoever is responsible for some of these horrible ideas, and set things right for everyone's sake. ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on March 01, 2016, 03:25:33 am
In view of the fact that many people opposed to change USB Type-A to USB Type-C, So we decided to still use the USB Type-A interface.I have deleted the yesterday's update. I am so sorry for the repeated change!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on March 01, 2016, 03:28:02 am
Looks like we've gone from possible design changes to most likely zero design changes.

I don't know if that's better.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on March 01, 2016, 07:05:21 am
In view of the fact that many people opposed to change USB Type-A to USB Type-C, So we decided to still use the USB Type-A interface.I have deleted the yesterday's update. I am so sorry for the repeated change!!

Thanks Kendy.

What about the suggested change of MicroUSB to USB Type-C? I think this is most logical and practical.

In any case, microUSB or USB Type-C only will be useful for charging the device, because you cannot use it for sending data from computer to device. This only can be done using Android. On Windows, you must use USB pendrives, Lan sharing, etc, but there is no way to connect and send data from one computer to another using a simple USB cable.


in another hand, what about L3 an R3 buttons? this is the other critical change that must be fixed on the design.

Looks like we've gone from possible design changes to most likely zero design changes.

I don't know if that's better.

if the changes are for worst design, then better don't touch this, or almost, don?t touch the good part of the current design.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lax on March 01, 2016, 08:34:09 am
In view of the fact that many people opposed to change USB Type-A to USB Type-C, So we decided to still use the USB Type-A interface.I have deleted the yesterday's update. I am so sorry for the repeated change!!

Thanks Kendy.

What about the suggested change of MicroUSB to USB Type-C? I think this is most logical and practical.

In any case, microUSB or USB Type-C only will be useful for charging the device, because you cannot use it for sending data from computer to device. This only can be done using Android. On Windows, you must use USB pendrives, Lan sharing, etc, but there is no way to connect and send data from one computer to another using a simple USB cable.


in another hand, what about L3 an R3 buttons? this is the other critical change that must be fixed on the design.

Looks like we've gone from possible design changes to most likely zero design changes.

I don't know if that's better.

if the changes are for worst design, then better don't touch this, or almost, don?t touch the good part of the current design.

Perfection & More IndieGoGo Backers = USB Type-A + USB Type-C replacing microUSB for faster charging and nonshitty pins that get bent every other day + other USB-C devices + futureproofing + a bit of keyboard (L3, R3) adjustments
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on March 01, 2016, 08:51:19 am
Perfection & More IndieGoGo Backers = USB Type-A + USB Type-C replacing microUSB for faster charging and nonshitty pins that get bent every other day + other USB-C devices + futureproofing + a bit of keyboard (L3, R3) adjustments

+1

my perfect bet is:
- 2xUSB Type-A (Direct plug devices without OTG adaptors)
- 1xUSB Type-C (Fast battery charging. In Android, fast data rate transfer)
- MicroHDMI (well, MiniHDMi is ok for me too)
- Full size SDCard (because large storage come in big SD Card size, such 256 (http://www.amazon.com/PNY-Elite-Performance-256GB-Speed/dp/B00FF90EZM) or 512 (http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-512GB-Memory-SDSDXPA-512G-G46/dp/B00NP699ZI) GB)
- Fix the L3/R3 buttons
- Remove/re-locate the right button bar of the device.

(and well, i prefer the device without the keyboard... but hope the next GPD device is the exact same thing that this GPD-Win, but without keyboard, pure gaming oriented)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Ronny on March 03, 2016, 03:22:38 am
How GPD intends to manufacture a device with Windows you can not make a quality device with android?
This will be decpicionante quality.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on March 03, 2016, 12:40:52 pm
How GPD intends to manufacture a device with Windows you can not make a quality device with android?
This will be decpicionante quality.

i don?t understand. GPD-XD is one of the best quality android gaming devices i tested (below NVidia Shield)
as for me, built quality is better even than N3DS XL

of course, there are some issues to solve because is not perfect, but i think GPD is doing a good job with XD device, and i figure will keep (or improve) in future devices too.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on March 03, 2016, 01:22:38 pm
Well, I may as well post what I shared with some members here a short while ago.   Seeing since it's pointless now anyway.

Here was one design I hadn't shown :


(http://i.imgur.com/YdvPqEO.jpg)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: xdplus fanatic-oopsy on March 03, 2016, 01:26:02 pm
There's a million ways GPD could redesign this device... but out of all, I think this setup above seems to be the best that I've seen at least.

 ;D
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on March 03, 2016, 02:28:30 pm
Someone had a great design idea where they placed the L3 and R3 on the bottom of the unit.  I really thought it was a great idea.

Update: I found this from Deen0X, and I like the idea of the L3 and R3 placement.  Your hand is already under the device, so why not place them at the bottom?  It doesn't have to be this exact design, obviously.  But the concept is great!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wCB2xMYiAwU/Vo7orBxW5mI/AAAAAAAAWwM/wB3g0g8V7E4/s800-Ic42/GPD-G59_V2.3.1_Closed_1.jpg)
Title: windows handheld device
Post by: SNESFAN on March 03, 2016, 11:37:34 pm
SNESFAN,

it is not blown out of proportion. that man is immoral and does not keep his word.

Did you see their update from a couple days ago?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mmv/console-os-dual-boot-android-remastered-for-the-pc/posts/1505967

Timeframe fail, follow through success just like I was saying

;)

Also congrats GPD on your successful campaign, I'm a backer as well.

-the guy asking about UEFI
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on March 04, 2016, 03:34:09 am
We have reached our goal!!Massive thanks to everyone support us!!Please continue and keep it going!!Really thanks!!
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: ker on March 04, 2016, 08:10:53 am

i don?t understand. GPD-XD is one of the best quality android gaming devices i tested (below NVidia Shield)
as for me, built quality is better even than N3DS XL

of course, there are some issues to solve because is not perfect, but i think GPD is doing a good job with XD device, and i figure will keep (or improve) in future devices too.

I've 3 different 3DS (3DSXL, New 3DS and New 3DSXL) and I can say Nintendo quality is far beyond GPD.

Having said that, GPD XD is a good device, the best chinese Android console I have seen
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Phawx on March 04, 2016, 02:49:57 pm
Hey look at that!  We got LOTS of good news:

"Now i can be surely tell you we will use the 8550 instead of the 8500!!"

Edit: more good news:

"Hey,we confirm that it is a 64 bit UEFI. It should be a good new!!"

Also it seems like they are actually looking into rearranging the keyboard from the comments as well.

Man!  Kendy this is all good news!  Also don't forget 2G+2G ram configuration for dual channel.

Edit again: "Thanks so much for your kind support!!The GPD WIN'S gamepad is Xbox 360 mode itself.So XInput is certainly can be supported!!Really thanks for your trust,we will never let you down!!"
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Sousaptak on March 07, 2016, 03:17:08 pm
Hello All,

I am really loving the new GPD Win project and how its going forward... I have been following on Openpandora Pyra development and was think about implementing the missing feature to GPD Win... I know as the budget is tight hence this feature might not get included still we can always expect Pro or Plus version with added perks.

Hardware Upgrades for current GPD Win:
1. CPU upgrade to Intel? Atom? x5-Z8550 
2. Wifi upgrade to 5ghz
3. Dual channel RAM configuration
4. USB A and C for better connectivity

Physical Changes
1. Keyboard changes to offer proper ergonomics.. as there has been many discussions on this . I prefer the layout from vcoleiro1
(http://i.imgur.com/iZIY2Qr.jpg)
2. fix for L3 and R3

Hardware Upgrades for GPD Win Plus including previous upgrades ( this is my personal preference so any suggestion or abusive comments are welcome :D )

 1. CPU upgrade to Intel? Atom? x7-Z8750 
 2. GPS module
 3. Inbuilt storage option till 128 GB
 4. Back-lit Keyboard ( should take a look at Pyra keyboard )


the Ultimate GPD win Pro ( including all previous options)

1. More enhanced CPU with better TDP/ Performance
2. Dedicated 3D mobile GPU
3. Screen resolution to 1024X768
4. RAM upgrade to 8 GB  ( future-proofing ;)
5. Front Camera with Flash
6. Vibration feature ( took it from Pyra too)
7. 4G//UMTS option
8. Bigger battery with higher density .
9. Clickable joysticks
10. XBOX style joystick placement... kinda like it more than current one :)

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on March 07, 2016, 07:55:16 pm
3. Screen resolution to 1024X768
The ultimate win Pro has a lower screen resolution?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Areso on March 08, 2016, 08:12:39 am
Hi guys.
I'm look on this enough long time, but there is dealbreaker for me. 1280*720p resolution. You see, if you wanna play old games, they usually have 1024*768 resolution. A lot of software also not very convinient for use with 720p, 'cause even if they have widescreen support, they do have 1280*800 (and 768 - for backsupport old 4:3 monitors).
So, is there a chance to see 1280*768 or 1280*800 resolution?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on March 08, 2016, 08:34:03 am
Hello,Everyone.Now we are hold a promotion activity for GPD WIN on Twitter.Hope you can help us to share this news and let more people know!!The link is blow,please check it and kindly Retweet it.Thanks so much!!https://twitter.com/softwincn (https://twitter.com/softwincn)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: NTMBK on March 08, 2016, 09:10:37 am
Hello,Everyone.Now we are hold a promotion activity for GPD WIN on Twitter.Hope you can help us to share this news and let more people know!!The link is blow,please check it and kindly Retweet it.Thanks so much!!https://twitter.com/softwincn (https://twitter.com/softwincn)

Quick tip- you might want to change "men" to "people". Women might want to game too ;)
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lexi on March 08, 2016, 09:35:02 am
Hello,Everyone.Now we are hold a promotion activity for GPD WIN on Twitter.Hope you can help us to share this news and let more people know!!The link is blow,please check it and kindly Retweet it.Thanks so much!!https://twitter.com/softwincn (https://twitter.com/softwincn)

Quick tip- you might want to change "men" to "people". Women might want to game too ;)

Unfortunately, we are used to it.   ???

kendy can you please confirm if GPD Win will have 5 GHz wifi or not?
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on March 08, 2016, 09:48:17 am
For the current situation,GPD WIN may can't support 5 GHz wifi.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: on March 08, 2016, 12:04:42 pm
Hi guys.
I'm look on this enough long time, but there is dealbreaker for me. 1280*720p resolution. You see, if you wanna play old games, they usually have 1024*768 resolution. A lot of software also not very convinient for use with 720p, 'cause even if they have widescreen support, they do have 1280*800 (and 768 - for backsupport old 4:3 monitors).
So, is there a chance to see 1280*768 or 1280*800 resolution?
This question really drives me up the wall. We are talking about a Windows handheld, not Android - you can basically run everything in windowed mode and can change the resolution at a heartbeat, whether you want it stretched or letterboxed. This also applies to older games, so you are benefiting no one by enforcing old standards.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: AVahne on March 08, 2016, 04:01:11 pm
Hi guys.
I'm look on this enough long time, but there is dealbreaker for me. 1280*720p resolution. You see, if you wanna play old games, they usually have 1024*768 resolution. A lot of software also not very convinient for use with 720p, 'cause even if they have widescreen support, they do have 1280*800 (and 768 - for backsupport old 4:3 monitors).
So, is there a chance to see 1280*768 or 1280*800 resolution?
GPD needs to use what's readily available. AFAIK, no one is making 5.5 inch screens with a PC-like resolution of 1280x768 or 1280x800.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: LordDavon on March 08, 2016, 04:23:06 pm
For the current situation,GPD WIN may can't support 5 GHz wifi.

I thought the 8550 had dual band 5Ghz built in?!

Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Berryal on March 08, 2016, 05:29:51 pm
Hi guys.
I'm look on this enough long time, but there is dealbreaker for me. 1280*720p resolution. You see, if you wanna play old games, they usually have 1024*768 resolution. A lot of software also not very convinient for use with 720p, 'cause even if they have widescreen support, they do have 1280*800 (and 768 - for backsupport old 4:3 monitors).
So, is there a chance to see 1280*768 or 1280*800 resolution?
GPD needs to use what's readily available. AFAIK, no one is making 5.5 inch screens with a PC-like resolution of 1280x768 or 1280x800.
720p would be fine
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: masterofstuff124 on March 08, 2016, 08:53:27 pm
5ghz is essential for streaming. please stop overlooking it in all your device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Deen0X on March 08, 2016, 09:00:52 pm
not only for 1080p streaming, there are other uses (but streaming is a big feature. Figure to connect GPD-Win to big TV and do proper 1080p/60fps streaming on it, that is not possible to do using 2.4GHz)

many users have their NAS on their home, plugged to 5GHz router
my case is something like this, and i use this NAS as shared resource for installing steam games on my machines
in fact, i have a single installation and can access from my tablets and computers to this location

if you try to use this with 2.4GHz, the transfer speed is so slow and not enough for using this as steam library repository (steam, origin, uplay, etc), but 5GHz is enough for using this way.

this is only a simple example of usage. maybe others have their fullHD (4K, etc) video files, and for playing it is needed a proper wifi for big ammount of transfer to play it directly from shared resource.

the, 5GHz wifi is a feature that have so much potential and usage, not simple streaming
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: leafar on March 09, 2016, 12:06:37 am
not only for 1080p streaming, there are other uses (but streaming is a big feature. Figure to connect GPD-Win to big TV and do proper 1080p/60fps streaming on it, that is not possible to do using 2.4GHz)

many users have their NAS on their home, plugged to 5GHz router
my case is something like this, and i use this NAS as shared resource for installing steam games on my machines
in fact, i have a single installation and can access from my tablets and computers to this location

if you try to use this with 2.4GHz, the transfer speed is so slow and not enough for using this as steam library repository (steam, origin, uplay, etc), but 5GHz is enough for using this way.

this is only a simple example of usage. maybe others have their fullHD (4K, etc) video files, and for playing it is needed a proper wifi for big ammount of transfer to play it directly from shared resource.

the, 5GHz wifi is a feature that have so much potential and usage, not simple streaming

thats what i am trying to say all this time,and my concern,she say in the replay comments about the WIFI not possible because in china and others places they dont have this technology yet,come in 2016 single band WIFI is old,and the GPD Win some main feature are for internet,game streaming,NAS and others,really i dont understand
so we need push this about the WIFI 5GHZ
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: vcoleiro1 on March 09, 2016, 01:57:21 am
This is GPDs response about 5ghz wifi etc that they posted on Indiegogo :

"Thanks so much for your kind support!!For the layout,It is still on the discussion.Once I get the update info,I will let you know.About the 5GHz wifi. Course this technology is still immature in many country.And it's broadband is short.so the signal may weak when cross the wall.So we choose the 2.4 GHz.Please don't worry,The 2.4 GHz is enough for the streaming and the operation for any program!"
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: brushpicks11 on March 09, 2016, 02:30:01 am
My kinoconsole works with 2.4 but it's choppy 5ghz removes choppiness wish they could've put that in the device since this GPD would be used a lot for streaming. Although this device should be a great intro for the win2 which I assume will be able to run a good collection of ps2 titles on pcsx2 which is all I really want a portable ps2
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lexi on March 09, 2016, 03:36:47 pm
This is GPDs response about 5ghz wifi etc that they posted on Indiegogo :

"Thanks so much for your kind support!!For the layout,It is still on the discussion.Once I get the update info,I will let you know.About the 5GHz wifi. Course this technology is still immature in many country.And it's broadband is short.so the signal may weak when cross the wall.So we choose the 2.4 GHz.Please don't worry,The 2.4 GHz is enough for the streaming and the operation for any program!"

What a joke. I've been using 5 GHz for years, and it is absolutely necessary. Come to any populous city in the US and try to use 2.4 GHz wifi in an apartment building, I dare you. The spectrum is so damn congested that you'll get 4-5 second latency spikes and 30% packet loss. 2.4 GHz is not enough, at all.

"And it's broadband is short.so the signal may weak when cross the wall"

That's a feature, not a downside. Are you serious? What an incredibly insulting and dismissive comment to a severe hardware flaw in their device.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: eragon2890 on March 09, 2016, 04:27:56 pm
it's a feature that you can't use it in the next room? How exactly? XD

Anyway, I get what he means - if 5 ghz wifi is shit in China, by far their primary/largest market, that's a good reason for them not to implement it from a business perspective - ordinary users expect things to just work, so it it doesn't, they won't look for the reason, they will just assume the device sucks.

Here in the Netherlands 2.4 is fine BTW, even in university or appartment building...
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: Lexi on March 09, 2016, 06:43:53 pm
it's a feature that you can't use it in the next room? How exactly? XD

I can't tell if you are serious, but sure, I'll explain. Bandwidth is limited. Especially wireless bandwidth. When you are using wifi, you aren't just limited to your own bandwidth, you're limited to other's bandwidth as well. You and all of your neighbors share the same spectrum, and if they are watching Netflix, your link quality will suffer greatly.

This is especially problematic on 2.4 GHz as there is so limited spectrum available, and the signal carries so far. Right now, in my house (not even apartment!), I'm picking up 23 different 2.4 ghz wifi aps. 23! 8 of them are on my selected wifi channel. That means I am sharing my 2.4 ghz bandwidth with 8 other houses, and assuming each one has only two users, that's 16 people. All of them can completely disrupt my game streaming. And there's nothing I can do about it.

5 GHz solves this via two ways. First, more channels. 2.4 GHz only has three non-overlapping channels, which means with everyone optimally configured, there's only room for 3 wifi aps on 2.4 ghz. Meanwhile, on 5 GHz, at 20 MHz width, there's room for 24 APs with no one interfering with others. TWENTY FOUR. That's more than enough for each of my detected 2.4 ghz ap to be on their own channel.

Second, 5 GHz signals are worse at penetrating walls. This means there is significantly less chance of it affecting your neighbors. While I pick up 23 different 2.4 GHz aps, I pick up a grand total of 3 5 GHz aps. Two of them are mine, and one of them is a close neighbor (and the signal is so weak I can barely detect it usually). This is a great thing, as it means congestion will likely not be an issue for decades to come.

My router is on the other side of my house, and it works fine on 5 GHz, while even standing right next to my router on 2.4 GHz, wifi is unusable.

Flat out LYING to customers (about 5 GHz being worse) because they don't want to spend the extra $2 on getting a decent wifi card is completely unacceptable and insulting. If they don't want to spend the money, fine, but don't spread disinformation to your customers to try to convince them you are making the right decision when you're just being cheap. 2.4 GHz congestion is only going to get worse. We need to move everything to 5 GHz asap.

ordinary users expect things to just work, so it it doesn't, they won't look for the reason, they will just assume the device sucks.

You mean if they try to download a file and get 10 kbit/second download speeds, or get massive ping spikes in online games, or try streaming game from desktop and it's completely unplayable? Guess what, lacking 5 ghz wifi only makes their product worse and will piss off the exact users you are talking about without them understanding what the issue is other than the device being cheap/awful.
Title: Re: windows handheld device
Post by: kendyzhu777 on March 10, 2016, 07:26:55 am
About the Deen0X's modified scheme

I am so sorry to inform that after the discussion,this modified scheme is denied.
Cause if we move one of the right two line keyboard to the left,It means we need cut three region for the keyboard.But cause GPD WIN is use the ABS+PC material and coated with UV.It is strong plasticity.But the ha