• HomeBoards
  • RulesRules
  • HelpHelp
  • WikiWiki
  • Donate

Author Topic: windows handheld device  (Read 214777 times)

Melquiades

  • Posts: 290
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2015, 01:59:59 pm »
Is just a a sketch done in 5-10 minutes. The point is having 4:3 screen, 6 face buttons in Genesis/Saturn fashion. Obviously there are plenty  of mistakes in the pictures.

kfchow

  • Posts: 47
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2015, 02:49:01 pm »
Many PC games require the keyboard, especially if they're old. Even if it's an awful keyboard, it's still a must - adventure games were raised as a point here. It's just a point of expanding the system's capabilities. But also, it's important for multi purpose reasons - typing is integral to all devices on the market, whether it be for internet, texting or just typing.

Also, for FPS games, you can use the joystick controls. Even DOOM supports joystick controls, and more complex games (like Deus Ex, or flight simulators) will only benefit from more buttons, even though the primary controls will still be the joypad.
That's also the reasons why I'm not insisting of arrow keys on the micro keyboard, they are redundant.

Anyway, I don't wish to offend, but I think I understand the broader spectrum of PC games better than most on this forum, simply because I've been a PC gamer ever since I was 2 years old. Games simply benefit from the versatility of the keyboard and the accuracy of the mouse, but ergonomics and smoothness are superior on a controller - that's why, if you want to increase your device portfolio, just add a keyboard. I think the ergonomics of the GPD XD are fine as they are, so they don't really necessitate an improvement in the immediate term.

Also, regarding Joy2Key, it reminds me of the AlphaGrip:
http://www.alphagrips.com/
It's simply cumbersome and warrants unwanted input from the user. It's not a practical design.
We had a saying in the army: "What isn't simple, simply doesn't work" - The more convoluted your design, the less people use it, and it becomes a barrier rather than a tool.

Joy2key is software mapping of joypad buttons to key presses

http://joytokey.net/en/

It's what people use when they build arcade machines from PC parts and they don't have a keyboard encoder like a ipac or jpac.

Works ok for the most part but personally keyboard encoding works for the majority of games especially emulator based.
Handhelds:
Lynx, GameGear, Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, GB Boy Color, GBA, GBA SP AGS-001, Gameboy Micro, DS Phat, DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL, 2DS, New 3DS XL, PSP 2000, PSP Go, PS Vita, Neo Geo Pocket Color, Wonderswan Color, Coolboy RS-97, Coolboy RS-90, GPD XD 64gb, ODROID-GO, PocketSprite

a330boy

  • Posts: 178
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2015, 03:15:18 pm »
Hey~guys,How do you think the windows handheld device?

All three designs have some problems so...

With GPD XD template make these changes:

1. Move Left Joystick to about where Vol- button is on XD.
2. Move Right Joystick to about where Mapper button is on XD.
3. Move and center Dpad just to the left of where L3 is on XD, and move and center XYBA group to just to the right of where R3 is on XD.
4. Place mini L3 in space above and between Dpad and Left Joystick, and mini R3 in space above and between Right Joystick and XYBA group.
5. Keep onOFF button where it is.
6. Encircle buttons for Vol - , Vol + and Function, Mapper vertical around onOFF button. Try to vertically "wrap" them around the onOff button.
7. Keep speakers where they are on GPD XD.
8. At bottom edge from left to right, place buttons horizontal like this:
Back, Home, raised GPD Logo bar, Select, Start.
9. Add dimples to left and right bottom corners to protect display when lid is closed.

Keyboard can be set into the long, wide empty area under the game controls, and directly above the Back to Start button row. For comfort, the keyboard should NOT stretch all the way to the left and to the right sides of the console, only at most to about 2 centimeters from the edges.

Others:
Make L2 and R2 bigger and extend them closer to L1 and R1.
Bluetooth option.

FIXED text.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 01:29:41 pm by a330boy »

kendyzhu777 (OP)

  • Posts: 326
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2015, 06:05:28 am »
Thanks for your kind concerns!!This three layouts are drawn by a Chinese GPD player!! And now we are still on the design process!!so any kind recommendation,be free to comment here,we will check it oftentimes and consider it as important references.

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2015, 09:10:15 am »
Based on 3rd choice (slide keyboard), i designed this another version:



this one, if the device gain only some milimeters of size, then i will be ok with this design.
the keyboard will be more comfortable because have more room for it.
I quit the control modes, because now there is no reason for them. Keyboard mode is the physical slider keyboard. Mouse mode is, the touchscreen.
I keep the new button area, but may be the same that current XD layout have. (select, start, home and back), but i consider there is needed almost one new button: the xbox controller "HOME" button (that is not the same as windows or android "HOME" button), that in my design is the "cube" button.


in general, i really like this design (not because i made, but is for practical and comfortable usage)

SONY

  • !
  • Posts: 1633
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2015, 01:00:17 pm »
It's going to be pretty thick.
Nintendo Switch w/ipega PG-9083

SONY PS3 Super Slim
SONY PS4 Slim
SONY PS4 Pro

ALLDOCUBE Mix Plus w/ ipega PG-9023

Apple iPad pro 2019 w/Gamevice (pending)

Melquiades

  • Posts: 290
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2015, 01:35:31 pm »
In my opinion, if somebody wants a keyboard so bad for a pad, they should look for other solutions, like minikeyboards with clippers or something like that. Just like the gameklipper for Dualshock 3 or to what 8bitdo has done with their SFC30. If GPD struggles to deliver normal consoles with decent quality at the current pricing, putting a keyboard is a recipe for disaster. Given my own experience I believe 10 out of 50 keys would not work on average.

The best is to keep it simple, costs down and use experience proof designs with the objective of makingsomething usable from a pure gaming perspective, there are plenty of other options available for other uses. And anyway, there will be room for experiments afterwards. If using G7 or Q9 molds the chance to have heating issues, for example, is lower, they should go for it. Keep in mind that what they are doing here is pioneering. This is Windows so, in my opinion extra pennies should go for the internal storage rather than to a keyboard.

If this is done properly, with Xinput controls and integrated x360ce, little else than the big screen mode will be required by most people. I frankly don't see the point. I would rather have a decent quality screen, with proper detection, than a shitty Rii-like keyboard.

Anybody that has used one of those keyboards knows a good screen generates less input errors.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 01:48:18 pm by Melquiades »

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2015, 01:44:04 pm »
Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.

Melquiades

  • Posts: 290
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2015, 01:49:14 pm »
Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.

Made in China, that is a good idea and compromise. Something like this:



Sold as an extra so those not interested can skip the cost, and everybody happy.

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2015, 04:24:22 pm »
So, have we come to a consensus, or does anyone have anything else to add?

BTW, each design will have a different price point, so GPD will have to give us an estimate for price point of said design. I'm assuming it'll factor into our (and their) decision making.

lemmywinks

  • Posts: 2878
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2015, 04:37:44 pm »
They could give Martin Riddiford a call and get him to design a proper sliding keyboard...  ;D
Handhelds:
GPD Win, GPD XD 64gb, PlayGo, RS-90, 3DS XL, DSi XL, GBA SP, GBBC Clone, Gameboy Pocket c/w screen mod, PSP Go
PC:
Medion Erazer, Toshiba Z20t, Dell Mini 9, Psion 5MX
Tons of other old laptops and tablets.....

redlemon

  • Posts: 119
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2015, 04:41:14 pm »
If you mean what are my must haves for me to purchase it. I guess it would be:

Clamshell design
Built in x-input support
HDMI out and bluetooth support for setting up emulators and the like. (Though I guess it would be easy enough to use something like team viewer for this.)

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2015, 05:55:48 pm »
In my opinion, if somebody wants a keyboard so bad for a pad, they should look for other solutions, like minikeyboards with clippers or something like that. Just like the gameklipper for Dualshock 3 or to what 8bitdo has done with their SFC30. If GPD struggles to deliver normal consoles with decent quality at the current pricing, putting a keyboard is a recipe for disaster. Given my own experience I believe 10 out of 50 keys would not work on average.

The best is to keep it simple, costs down and use experience proof designs with the objective of makingsomething usable from a pure gaming perspective, there are plenty of other options available for other uses. And anyway, there will be room for experiments afterwards. If using G7 or Q9 molds the chance to have heating issues, for example, is lower, they should go for it. Keep in mind that what they are doing here is pioneering. This is Windows so, in my opinion extra pennies should go for the internal storage rather than to a keyboard.

If this is done properly, with Xinput controls and integrated x360ce, little else than the big screen mode will be required by most people. I frankly don't see the point. I would rather have a decent quality screen, with proper detection, than a shitty Rii-like keyboard.

Anybody that has used one of those keyboards knows a good screen generates less input errors.

Agree with you.
only a note. If you get a compatible XInput device, you don?t need x360ce integration. in my opinion. the best that GPD-XD is setting a XInput driver for windows, and with this gain so much compatibility with many games.

Deen0X, I really like the new design. It seems to encompass everything so far.
How about a detachable "keyboard drawer" accessory? My thinking is this:
If people won't use the keyboard on a regular basis, they can just detach the keyboard and leave it at home/in the backpack/etc.
If people do want to use the keyboard, just make its sliding mechanism detachable through 4 clips in the lower end, plus a USB port.

That way you can choose whether you want your device to be just oriented towards gaming or a mini-laptop. I realize that I'm in a minority here (although I don't understand the rational for not wanting a keyboard, but that's on my end), and that option should cater to everyone while still maintaining the all-in-one aspect of the device.

yes, this is one of my first choices, adding a detachable keyboard that can be selled as accessory

my first idea is adding a full keyboard OVER the device (where are the controls), plugged using some clip mechanism. the main idea is if you're using a keyboard for gaming, then you don?t need joystick.

but, after designing the last alternative, i start thinking is the best way. yes, may be some detachable keyboard, in the same way iphone have their covers with keyboard, i think is a good alternative, even a bluetooth keyboard will be fine.

lemmywinks

  • Posts: 2878
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2015, 06:21:35 pm »
For me there's just something so right about the XD design and layout that I basically just want a Windows version of it with Xinput. I fear that trying to shoehorn a keyboard in there would compromise what is so good about it.

I do think the three buttons would be a good idea though - one to select xinput mode, one to select mouse mode and one to bring up a touch keyboard. That last one is vital as Windows doesn't handle touch keyboards as well as Android and iOS in traditional Windows mode (not Metro), when you select a text box for instance you have to manually bring up the keyboard by selecting it in the taskbar which would be painful on a ~5" screen.
Handhelds:
GPD Win, GPD XD 64gb, PlayGo, RS-90, 3DS XL, DSi XL, GBA SP, GBBC Clone, Gameboy Pocket c/w screen mod, PSP Go
PC:
Medion Erazer, Toshiba Z20t, Dell Mini 9, Psion 5MX
Tons of other old laptops and tablets.....

vcoleiro1

  • Posts: 1720
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2015, 09:41:12 pm »
For me a keyboard would be a must.  I wouldn't buy it without one. It would just be too gimped for me without it.

You need a keyboard to play old pc games (including amiga emus etc).  A Lot of these games used the function keys and numerous keys on the keyboard.   While you could make some ridiculous mappings for them all, it would be a nightmare trying to remember where they all are.

You also need a keyboard if you plan on running any windows apps which require a keyboard - which is most. 


There already is a precedence for a device with both gaming controls and a keyboard, and it works great.    The keyboard was added to it specifically so that it can fill the gap to cater for those who wanted to play old pc games. And it does it well.  Unfortunately this is a gap that still exists on the Android/Windows handheld game console side.  There are tons of options for a handheld without a keyboard, and they are all limited in the same way.  It's time something took a step forward and set itself ahead of most of the pack.  It would be that edge in my opinion that would generate a lot more sales for GPD as it adds a whole bunch of potential customers wanting that keyboard for various reasons.


The XD is bigger than the Pandora and thus has more room for a keyboard - the XD is 15mm wider and a bit deeper.  But just as an example, here is a the Pandora layout again. 

« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 09:57:19 pm by vcoleiro1 »

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2015, 10:07:33 pm »
but pandora layout is not comfortable, almost not as GPD-XD

I think we are loosing the focus.

what we want is a gamepad with a screen, running windows on it.
simply.

the comfort for playing with this gamepad must be the main goal.

maybe a device like this is not suitable for playing old keyboard based games.
and... about this, anybody can mention titles that need a keyboard to play? is for curious really, because as i know, many old titles can be played with a gamepad, with a Joy2Key profile configurated.

if there are only few games that requires keyboard, in my opinion this is not enough reason for adding the keyboard to the device (and more if this overprice the final product)

vcoleiro1

  • Posts: 1720
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2015, 10:13:41 pm »
The Pandora layout is perfectly comfortable in my opinion, much more so than the XD which requires my thumbs to crane down to the lower controls.

And there are many games that require a keyboard for the function and other keys , like adventure games etc.  ie there are whole genres of old PC games that are not suitable to be played without a keyboard.   

You gain a tremendous amount by having a keyboard, you lose little if not nothing by having one.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 10:17:55 pm by vcoleiro1 »

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2015, 10:20:37 pm »
and... about this, anybody can mention titles that need a keyboard to play? is for curious really, because as i know, many old titles can be played with a gamepad, with a Joy2Key profile configurated.
Old Sierra adventure games.
Old LucasArts adventure games.
Some indie games.
Any strategy game.

I don't think we're losing focus here, we're still debating the layout of the device. I think a detachable keyboard drawer that'll add, what, 1.5cm to the height of the device isn't that bad and therefore a good compromise, but that's just me.

vcoleiro1, do you think it's necessary to have the keyboard on the same plane as the game controls? Because the latest design by Deen0X fills all of the voids in my opinion.

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2015, 10:44:21 pm »
Old Sierra adventure games.
Old LucasArts adventure games.
Some indie games.
Any strategy game.

but can you mention titles?
i want to google for them and check if really these games cannot be played with a proper joy2key setup.

of course, we are not talking about games that requires to input commands. personally i discard these kind of games for now.
i want to know other kind of games with only keyboard support.

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2015, 10:52:02 pm »
Well, adventure games require you to input commands, that's why they're so commonly brought up.

Regarding strategy games, you can't play Warcraft 1, 2 or 3 with only a gamepad. I don't think that 1 and 2 even support gamepad.
Same goes for StarCraft, the original XCOM series, etc. Strategy games necessitate the use of a keyboard for macros.

Regarding indie titles, it was brought up here but I'm not so sure myself. I think Undertale? Maybe The Stanley Parable. Also, I really enjoyed Lemmings in the past, but it really needs keyboard support for the number keys.

Point is, there are games that require the use of the keyboard, or are just more comfortable with more keys. Combine that with the inherent need of a keyboard with the Windows environment, and there's really no way of getting around that.

We've been going in the right direction up until now, and that is merging the keyboard onto the GPD XD - whether it be by a detachable custom accessory or rearranging the bottom layout of the GPD XD. We need to continue develop these ideas because they made sense in the first place, rather than second guess them.

 

Post a new topic
Post a new topic