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Author Topic: windows handheld device  (Read 214290 times)

eragon2890

  • Posts: 1887
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2015, 04:17:51 pm »
well, about DPAD there are lot of opinions.

i really prefer the Q9 DPAD. is the best DPAD i used on any android console, and i really want to get this piece on XD.
current DPAD is ... enough, but not the best choice (and is so small)

and for the rest of the design, i respect the original XD form and layout. simply add some buttons (not so much), biggest screen (rumours mentioned 5.5") and the DPAD. the rest is exactly the same design

The bigger scrreen is agree. Yes the Q9 is best dpad not just on android but also vita and 3ds xl included (tough defeating the 3ds XD is not that difficult in most aspects, as the XD has shown), but not very durable. and it sticks out more, making it hard to close the lid.

the XD dpad, at first I hated it fro fighting games and arcade shoot them ups, now I love ti for them. With some getting used to and breaking it in I weave my way trough the bullets :O

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 07:45:41 pm »
I really don't understand the hate for keyboards. They shouldn't take THAT much space.
To support my argument, BlackBerries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Q10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Priv
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Passport

These keyboards can be implemented between the buttons without them taking too much space. Rather than being the traditional keyboard layout, they are a bit more compact - but still offer pretty much the same functionality, which is important if the device will run Windows and have a secondary functionality.
However, I agree that the game controls are the primary function and shouldn't be affected by those additions.

Buttons to switch from Xinput to Dinput are a must, but those can simply replace the current Xbox/PS3 modes on the existing GPD XD.

Also, Deen0X, nice design! I however feel (as a PC gamer) that most of these buttons can be consolidated onto hotkeys on the keyboard, if GPD will follow through with the Windows device. Some of them can prove to be useful, but I feel that by and large they're redundant. Your design is more fitting of an Android console of the same nature.

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2015, 09:27:07 pm »
ok, i will try to get more clear speaking (writting)

i'm not against a keyboard itself. My complains are based that playing any widnows keyboard based game will not be "comfortable" in the same way playing on micro-keyboards.

as example, there is my own version of GPD-XD with keyboard (a simple keyboard. there are need to add some keys)



take as example any old FPS game that don?t have joystick support.
these games usuaally have keyboard and mouse support.?
ok, now try to imagine to play this game, that use WASD for move, space for jump, ctrl for fire, etc, etc....
using a microkeyboard, you really will use your thumbs over the keyboard.
you will not be able to move forward (W) and jump (space) and run (alt), for giving an example.
the keyboard layout will not be useful on this situation.

now, imagine playing Starcraft-Warcraft. the most quick way to play these games is using a keyboard... and of course a mouse.
this game don?t have many combo keys that you need to press at the same time, but you need to be fast using the keyboard.
do you think using a micro-keyboard will be comfortable for playing this kind of games? i really doubt.

then, which kind of games you can play using a keyboard? adventures that requires command input.
Ok. based on this kind of games. How much games of this kind can be played, really played, on this device?
i think, there are not so much games of this kind and less people that want to play this kind of games on a device like this.

I agree with Made in China that, "the game controls are the primary function and shouldn't be affected by those additions"

currently the device feels comfortable. yes, i maybe prefer other DPAD, but in general is a good layout of controls.

if GPD can add a keyboard that don?t affect to me based on the current layout, then for me is ok.
I hope GPD, if is adding this Keyboard, add a "keyboard" button for enable/diosable this keyboard. May be "annoying" playing a game, and accidentally press the "ESC" key or any other, and affect the gameplay.


About my design, i posted quick and without explanation. now i want to explain it.



The layout is based on current XD layout. I add the GPD-Q9 DPAD, and displaced a little bit between the left stick and the bottom buttons.
Take note that i?m thinking on a dual-os device.
- I put a 3x2 button layout. These buttons are in the same position than current XD have. Only added two buttons and renamed all of them to get a standard layout ABCXYZ
- The DPAD is inline with ABXY buttons
- There are specific WIFI and Bluetooth buttons for enabling/disabling
- VOL- and VOL+ are the same
- Keyboard mapping (see below) and Gamepad(standard touch) mapping
- Control modes: Keyboard, Mouse+Keyboard, Gamepad

The Keyboard mode change the behavior of the controls, and all act as standard keyboard.
This is configurable from software.
for an example of behavior using Keyboard mode may be:
Left derecho = 4 keys (WASD)
Right stick = 4 keys (IJKL)
Game buttons = 6 buttons (ctrl, shift, space, alt, tab, caps)
Triggers =4 buttons (QEZC)
L3 and R3 = 2 buttons (UO)
SELECT y START = 2 buttons(ESC and ENTER)
DPAD = 4 buttons (ARROWS)

(total= 26 keys)

Mouse mode
Will be similar to previous layout (keyboard) but with some modifications:
right stick: mousestick
left stick: mouse wheel (up down) and side wheel (left right)
L2 and R2 will be Left and Right buttons
L3 will be middle button.

Gamepad mode: will configure controls as standard XInput gamepad.

The button bar are only an idea. There are buttons for windows and android OS, and gamepad (select and start)
maybe there are buttons that can work on both OS. (WIN button will work as HOME in android, and Menu button will act as menu in both operating systems. Back button may be ESC in windows)
the central button is the "HOME" button from XBox controller (for opening Steam interface, as example)
all these buttons have magnetic face, for providing the same functionality that current magnetic close. If not possible, then may be on the clean space can be placed these buttons.

There are two Fn (modificators) back


The Fn1 (left) and Fn2 (right) buttons are similar to front function buttons. Must be a little bit hard to be pressed, to avoid accidental press.

These buttons will change the behavior of the control layout when Keyboard mode is enabled.
As example. i can configure DPAD as arrows when no Fn are pressed.
with Fn1 pressed, may be i can configure 1234 keys
with Fn2 pressed, may be i can configure 5678 keys
with Fn1 and Fn2 pressed, may be i can configure 90,. keys

using this example, and based on the 26 keys of the layout, you can get 26*4 keys to be configured: 104 keys in total.

Except for games that need to write command on screen (because will be uncomfortable to write, basically), any other game that requires keyboard for playing you can configure with this method.


Another way to implement keyboard is using JoytoKey. With this, you can configure your gamepad as standard keyboard too.


Finally, i added two trackpads at the bottom of the device


these trackapdas can be enabled from some option on the device (or specific button may be).
When actives, give analog values for Triggers (for racing or any other game that need analog values)

Zalu2!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 09:32:56 pm by Deen0X »

kfchow

  • Posts: 47
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2015, 09:37:00 pm »
Personally all i care about is that the buttons are mapped as keypresses rather than a joystick.  Reason being is that you can then map to Taito Type X system easy.  True you can also use something like joy2key but call me old fashioned nothing beats keypresses.
Handhelds:
Lynx, GameGear, Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, GB Boy Color, GBA, GBA SP AGS-001, Gameboy Micro, DS Phat, DS Lite, DSi, DSi XL, 2DS, New 3DS XL, PSP 2000, PSP Go, PS Vita, Neo Geo Pocket Color, Wonderswan Color, Coolboy RS-97, Coolboy RS-90, GPD XD 64gb, ODROID-GO, PocketSprite

vcoleiro1

  • Posts: 1720
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2015, 09:48:27 pm »
Yes, Yes , Yess.   And absolutely yes for the keyboard.  It's absolutely needed especially for old PC, Amiga etc etc emulation.
Something that's lacking in all current emu gaming handhelds to date apart from the Pandora. Plus if you want to run windows apps , your going to need the keyboard.

I would have the controls in a line at the top like the Pandora which works very well.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 09:52:22 pm by vcoleiro1 »

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2015, 10:21:22 pm »
Many PC games require the keyboard, especially if they're old. Even if it's an awful keyboard, it's still a must - adventure games were raised as a point here. It's just a point of expanding the system's capabilities. But also, it's important for multi purpose reasons - typing is integral to all devices on the market, whether it be for internet, texting or just typing.

Also, for FPS games, you can use the joystick controls. Even DOOM supports joystick controls, and more complex games (like Deus Ex, or flight simulators) will only benefit from more buttons, even though the primary controls will still be the joypad.
That's also the reasons why I'm not insisting of arrow keys on the micro keyboard, they are redundant.

Anyway, I don't wish to offend, but I think I understand the broader spectrum of PC games better than most on this forum, simply because I've been a PC gamer ever since I was 2 years old. Games simply benefit from the versatility of the keyboard and the accuracy of the mouse, but ergonomics and smoothness are superior on a controller - that's why, if you want to increase your device portfolio, just add a keyboard. I think the ergonomics of the GPD XD are fine as they are, so they don't really necessitate an improvement in the immediate term.

Also, regarding Joy2Key, it reminds me of the AlphaGrip:
http://www.alphagrips.com/
It's simply cumbersome and warrants unwanted input from the user. It's not a practical design.
We had a saying in the army: "What isn't simple, simply doesn't work" - The more convoluted your design, the less people use it, and it becomes a barrier rather than a tool.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:25:31 pm by Made in China »

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2015, 11:58:38 pm »
I really understand the points of people that want a keyboard, but simply i prefer to be pragmatic.

if GPD will not modify the current design and affect the gameplay, for me no problem

at last, there are some graphics i did now, with some examples of the controls modes i mentioned. (and well, i changed the buttom bar, and add some buttons for these functions)


The new bottons are:
First line are focussed on gamepad controls: Select, Home and Start
The "Home" is the central button from XBox controller, and is used on some games or interfaces (steam uses for showing the steam panel)
The "cube" icon is simply because i figure GPD will not put the "X" icon from XBox controller.

Next line is multipropouse buttons for both, Android and Windows.
Back button (android) is "ESC" button in Windows
Windows button (Widows) is HOME button in android
Menu button is menu in both operating systems.

Now, in Gamepad mode:


Control schemma is a standard XInput gamepad

in Keyboard mode, there may be 4 configurable setups:

Without Fn pressed


Fn1 pressed


Fn2 pressed


Fn1 & Fn2 pressed

and finally, Mouse mode. This mode is similar to Keyboard, but some controls will be fixed to be mouse:

where left stick (4D Wheel mouse), Rigth stick (Mouse movement), L3 (Middle button), L2 and R2 (Left and right buttons) will be assigned by default to mouse control.

well. this is my last version... for now.

Zalu2!

SONY

  • !
  • Posts: 1633
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2015, 12:40:33 am »
@Deen0X

OpenPandora?

Nintendo Switch w/ipega PG-9083

SONY PS3 Super Slim
SONY PS4 Slim
SONY PS4 Pro

ALLDOCUBE Mix Plus w/ ipega PG-9023

Apple iPad pro 2019 w/Gamevice (pending)

Deen0X

  • Posts: 1702
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2015, 12:56:12 am »
XDDDDDD

nope, i simply found a cube for adding a random icon. XDDDD

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2015, 12:56:49 am »
Deen0X, dude, I feel like I'm always shooting you down, but you've got to agree with me that it's way too complex. I'm not arguing that typical keyboard controls can be mapped to the gamepad, you've certainly proved that - but it's far from practical. As I've mentioned, the fact that the controls are convoluted poses it more as an obstacle rather than a tool.
To further drive my point home, you couldn't Ctrl+C Ctrl+V with your current layout, and there are literally dozens of other macros and shortcuts people are familiar with that simply aren't possible with every implementation.

A BlackBerry keyboard can fit neatly between the d-pad and the face buttons. Why would you want to replace it with macro buttons? And you're replacing it with macro buttons that can EASILY be mapped to a button combo using the keyboard and the existing buttons, like it's always been and people are familiar with. Just Windows Key+Gamepad button and you're toggling between Xinput and Dinput, etc.

It's just making an issue out of a non-issue. It's a Windows device, of course it needs a keyboard.
If it weren't Windows, you could manage - but again - it's more of an addition to an already functional device with the gamepad being included. The only other plausible addition instead of a keyboard is a second touchscreen, and it's not supported by Android at the moment - so I just don't see the point in anything OTHER than a keyboard.

Also, a 3*2 face buttons arrangement would be neat, for those MAME fighters. But I think those functions have been replaced by the shoulder buttons, mostly, and it isn't the most ergonomic of designs. Still, it's a point to consider.

lemmywinks

  • Posts: 2878
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2015, 01:38:15 am »
The point isn't to make it a PC though, it's to make a Windows gaming handheld. You don't need keyboard shortcuts as you can long press the touchscreen and scroll down to copy/paste, realistically how often are you going to type on this? If you want a mini PC then I think you're missing the point. A keyboard would be nice but it should never compromise the gamepad layout which the 2nd example GPD posted would definitely do.

I game primarily on PC, I have done for years ever since I first played Doom. I readily accept that some games just aren't gonna work on a Windows handheld as they require a keyboard and mouse, not a small rubber keyboard with a right analog stick (which would get tiresme very quickly) but a proper kb/mouse setup which you only get from a laptop or desktop. Old FPS games which need WASD and a mouse and have no modern zoom function just aren't gonna work. However I know from tablet gaming enough will work just fine to make it more than worthwhile, particularly a lot of last gen games which are designed to work with the XBox360 pad.

I just think although a keyboard would be nice it's not needed - and I actually use a Windows device without a keyboard regularly. The old games which do need one aren't going to be enjoyable with a mini keyboard and no mouse, those small keyboards aren't designed for gaming. Again I've actually used devices with mini keyboards for gaming before, the smallest I'd want to use is Psion S5/Jornada/Viao P size. In fact I'd say if you want to play old Windows games like Deus Ex on an tiny device then get a P Series Viao and a small wireless mouse.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 01:43:51 am by lemmywinks »
Handhelds:
GPD Win, GPD XD 64gb, PlayGo, RS-90, 3DS XL, DSi XL, GBA SP, GBBC Clone, Gameboy Pocket c/w screen mod, PSP Go
PC:
Medion Erazer, Toshiba Z20t, Dell Mini 9, Psion 5MX
Tons of other old laptops and tablets.....

  • Posts: 565
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2015, 02:13:14 am »
I don't get the issue. The main gaming controller for FPSes and the like will be the already present gamepad, with the keyboard buttons assigned for less-used functions, such as toggling between weapon groups in Half Life (first thing that popped into my mind).
And you can't deny many older games only support keyboard input, that's why I said that its versatility is key to expanding ANY console base.

And you know what? I'll turn this around. What do macros have to offer that the micro-keyboard doesn't? You're basically getting a mini laptop that's oriented for gaming even more than just a purely-gaming oriented device. Name one improvement that macros have over a keyboard.

Also, don't give me "the keyboard will push the buttons aside", because you have far more space in between the buttons and the d-pad RIGHT NOW to fit a BlackBerry keyboard, which is all I'm saying it needs to be.

Renard

  • Posts: 45
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2015, 03:34:45 am »
Second please!!!!

eragon2890

  • Posts: 1887
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2015, 09:51:09 am »
The point isn't to make it a PC though, it's to make a Windows gaming handheld. You don't need keyboard shortcuts as you can long press the touchscreen and scroll down to copy/paste, realistically how often are you going to type on this? If you want a mini PC then I think you're missing the point. A keyboard would be nice but it should never compromise the gamepad layout which the 2nd example GPD posted would definitely do.

I game primarily on PC, I have done for years ever since I first played Doom. I readily accept that some games just aren't gonna work on a Windows handheld as they require a keyboard and mouse, not a small rubber keyboard with a right analog stick (which would get tiresme very quickly) but a proper kb/mouse setup which you only get from a laptop or desktop. Old FPS games which need WASD and a mouse and have no modern zoom function just aren't gonna work. However I know from tablet gaming enough will work just fine to make it more than worthwhile, particularly a lot of last gen games which are designed to work with the XBox360 pad.

I just think although a keyboard would be nice it's not needed - and I actually use a Windows device without a keyboard regularly. The old games which do need one aren't going to be enjoyable with a mini keyboard and no mouse, those small keyboards aren't designed for gaming. Again I've actually used devices with mini keyboards for gaming before, the smallest I'd want to use is Psion S5/Jornada/Viao P size. In fact I'd say if you want to play old Windows games like Deus Ex on an tiny device then get a P Series Viao and a small wireless mouse.

Agreed with everything you say, altough I have to point out that playing quake 1 and quake 2 on my XD (the android versions) is an absolute joy and works really really well. Left stick = WSAD, it moves me, and right stick = AIM To kill.
R1 to murder, and l2/r2 to switch next/prev weapon.

I think the real problem with this thing is that anything old enough that it''s going to run on this chipset will likely have huge problems with windows 10, or not support widescreen, or both. Headaches!

Which would probably lead to the funny situation that you can play a shitload of old pc games on the XD perfectly and in widescreen, usually remade for controls (tomb raider 1 and 2, gta 3/vice city, half-life, star wars kotor, quake 1/2/3, jedi outcast, jedi academy, max payne, imperium galactica 2, return to castle wolfenstein, hereos of might and magic, baldurs gate, icewind dale all have android versions usually much upgraded from the original in terms of graphics and otherwise authentic, there are more) and a lot of these probably would not work on this windows 10 handheld! If they did they would not support widescreen or the controller.

So ironically, I don?t think this is even going to be an improvement for most "windows" games. The real cool ones which are old enough are often ported so the modern version on android is much , much, much better!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 09:53:11 am by eragon2890 »

lemmywinks

  • Posts: 2878
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2015, 10:24:22 am »
I don't get the issue. The main gaming controller for FPSes and the like will be the already present gamepad, with the keyboard buttons assigned for less-used functions, such as toggling between weapon groups in Half Life (first thing that popped into my mind).
And you can't deny many older games only support keyboard input, that's why I said that its versatility is key to expanding ANY console base.

And you know what? I'll turn this around. What do macros have to offer that the micro-keyboard doesn't? You're basically getting a mini laptop that's oriented for gaming even more than just a purely-gaming oriented device. Name one improvement that macros have over a keyboard.

Also, don't give me "the keyboard will push the buttons aside", because you have far more space in between the buttons and the d-pad RIGHT NOW to fit a BlackBerry keyboard, which is all I'm saying it needs to be.

That's the point I made though, the older games which need keyboard/mouse input are going to play like ass on a micro keyboard. If you've ever tried to play games on these types of keyboard you'll know this. Also those older FPS games just aren't playable with a right analog for aiming, try the Android port of Half Life on the XD - it's very playable until you get to the parts where there are enemy soldiers who are firing at you from distance and you need to be accurate, ie mouse aiming accurate.
The Quake games are ok as they don't need as much accuracy but games like Deus Ex would be a PITA. Try these games on PS2 if you don't believe me - Half Life and Deus Ex are awful with dual analog pads . Something like the original Far Cry would be much more playable as it has a great "down the sights" mechanic so you can get some much needed accuracy, it makes the target bigger for you and slows down aiming.

I'm not saying a keyboard is a bad idea - I'd prefer one - just don't think that you're going to be gaming or typing with it and having a good experience. I want a device like this for playing my GoG and Steam library however there's games which just need a kb/mouse to play them properly and having a mini keyboard isn't going to fix that.
Handhelds:
GPD Win, GPD XD 64gb, PlayGo, RS-90, 3DS XL, DSi XL, GBA SP, GBBC Clone, Gameboy Pocket c/w screen mod, PSP Go
PC:
Medion Erazer, Toshiba Z20t, Dell Mini 9, Psion 5MX
Tons of other old laptops and tablets.....

redlemon

  • Posts: 119
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2015, 10:29:27 am »
Personally my own intended use for a device like this would be Japanese ports and indie games. A mini keyboard would be nice for games like undertale which have gamepad support except for one out two buttons. I'm just not confident that they're be able to pull it off without multiple hardware revisions and if prefer not to wait.

lemmywinks

  • Posts: 2878
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2015, 10:44:58 am »
There's a ton of indies I want to play on this, in fact there's games I've held off playing in my Steam/GoG libraries because I prefer playing that style lying on my sofa on a handheld. Couple that with big titles like Tomb Raider reboot, Fallout 3 etc and you've got a great handheld.
Handhelds:
GPD Win, GPD XD 64gb, PlayGo, RS-90, 3DS XL, DSi XL, GBA SP, GBBC Clone, Gameboy Pocket c/w screen mod, PSP Go
PC:
Medion Erazer, Toshiba Z20t, Dell Mini 9, Psion 5MX
Tons of other old laptops and tablets.....

Melquiades

  • Posts: 290
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2015, 12:14:07 pm »
This is it. 4:3, screen not completely centered to make room for 6 face buttons saturn style. The rest does not really matter.




sirp0p0

  • Posts: 600
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2015, 12:32:06 pm »
That off-center screen would drive me insane.

eragon2890

  • Posts: 1887
Re: windows handheld device
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2015, 01:33:03 pm »
are the analogs as big as the face buttons? >_<