Author Topic: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe  (Read 4517 times)

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« on: November 02, 2016, 12:14:57 pm »
...

Allright. I think I might understand why some people have crashing wins, but mostly/only when gaming/doing intensive tasks, and others have no issues.

I do think it MIGHT be a hardware issue, and I DON'T think GPD has anything to do with it.

I think, just maybe, Intel cheaped out on producing the 8700s.

What I mean is this: normally, when producing CPU's, you try to create X number of CPU's capable of running stabily on X clock frequency. ie 3.5 ghz. Then, a lot of the produced CPU's will turn out to be unstable on that frequency, so they will be " binned"  meaning downclocked step by step till they are stable. Then sold as whatever the model name is of that CPU on that lower clock frequency. This is also part of the reason why some cpu's overclock better then others of the same model.

Now then. For these atom SOCS, in normal tablet usage, they will barely hit the max burst speed. So although the CPU's are officially rated to function at 2.4 GHZ (in the case of the 8700) , I think maybe intel is more lenient in QA's 8700 SOCS which are not stable when run at 2.4 ghz all the time. Reasoning that they won't do this much anyway and no-one will notice.

Why I think this? Because it explains nicely why not just the WIN but also some other devices with active cooling systems and 8700 cpu's which are used for gaming (ie the voyo3) have lots of stability issues. Whereas people who have a surface 3 and such do not.

I think , INTEL has fucked up here by not binning 8700 properly which are unstable when constantly keeped at 2.4 GHZ.

Which is noticable in this device because it is one of the few ones where this happens.

Now before people ask why eg the intel compute stick with active cooling does not have this problem? Simple, it's a 8300, probably those are binned 8500/8700s, so they will work fine at the much lower clock frequencies of the 8300.

But I think this is what is going on with the WIN, and it would perfectly explain why some people have stability issues, others don't, and reinstalling windows does not help.

Offcourse, this is just a theory. But if it is true, then GPD can not fix this, and the only way to allieviate is either maybe underclocking yourslef (to 8500 levels) on the CPU or asking for a replacement.

This would also explain why some people said they only got trouble in the CPU tests...

Keith

  • Posts: 9
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 01:18:08 pm »
if what you say in true then GPD would have been better of with the 8750 Chip anyway for everyone

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 01:22:09 pm »
if what you say in true then GPD would have been better of with the 8750 Chip anyway for everyone

Not necessarily, if my theory is correct, there  would be 0 reason to assume intel did a better job for the 8750. Actually, it's clocked even higher, so one would expect more errors like this. Which maybe why intel said the 8750 is unstable.

Phawx

  • Posts: 780
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 02:52:40 pm »
if what you say in true then GPD would have been better of with the 8750 Chip anyway for everyone

Not necessarily, if my theory is correct, there  would be 0 reason to assume intel did a better job for the 8750. Actually, it's clocked even higher, so one would expect more errors like this. Which maybe why intel said the 8750 is unstable.

Except there were very few reports of display driver crashing problems from JD.com people.

The only thing unstable about the 8750 is that GPU performance is varied.  Technically speaking, we've seen more chip problems from the 8700 than Baidu complained about the 8750.  And how many people even have them yet?  Lots of IGG people are getting them today/tomorrow, so we have to wait for that.

Actually, there was a significant batch to Japanese backers, but they probably go to a different forum than us so who knows what problems they are showing.

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 02:59:08 pm »
True... but i have also seen a lot of good-looking vids and happy unboxing people on youtube...

I will see how my WIN from @Web8bits  is, it looks like an awesome device if everything works. If mine is unusable like some others and nothing fixed it (won't open it, but reinstalling and such) I will just ask for a replacement, if that doesn't work either, a refund, and in that latter case wait a few weeks untill GPD will certainly fix whatsever's causing this (if it's common, because otherwise they won't sell any more WINS), and rebuy one then. I have no intention of accepting a 350 euros game handheld which simply does not play games, crashes, has blue screens, etc.

But I hope mine is fine, it looks like a cool device when it works from your videos.

We shall see in the next 24 hours probably how common it is indeed... I am curious

Oshin

  • Posts: 58
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 04:07:49 pm »
I wouldn't panic too much just yet, I think to be honest every WIN is going to spit out a a few driver errors - what the actual impact of that is another thing, I didn't really notice any issues while playing games on mine that's for sure. I do think the Cherry trail series has its share of problems though, I just hope we can all collectively find enough workarounds for these driver issues.

Web8bits

  • Posts: 90
    • GPD, JXD and Hyperkin distributor in Spain
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 06:31:43 pm »

True... but i have also seen a lot of good-looking vids and happy unboxing people on youtube...

I will see how my WIN from @Web8bits  is, it looks like an awesome device if everything works. If mine is unusable like some others and nothing fixed it (won't open it, but reinstalling and such) I will just ask for a replacement, if that doesn't work either, a refund, and in that latter case wait a few weeks untill GPD will certainly fix whatsever's causing this (if it's common, because otherwise they won't sell any more WINS), and rebuy one then. I have no intention of accepting a 350 euros game handheld which simply does not play games, crashes, has blue screens, etc.


I have tested one of our wins with some 3d test for an hour without any crash so I think that is OK, its with the original BIOS and original windows installation. When you receive your unit, test before without any changes, it works for me.

Regards

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 06:45:25 pm »

True... but i have also seen a lot of good-looking vids and happy unboxing people on youtube...

I will see how my WIN from @Web8bits  is, it looks like an awesome device if everything works. If mine is unusable like some others and nothing fixed it (won't open it, but reinstalling and such) I will just ask for a replacement, if that doesn't work either, a refund, and in that latter case wait a few weeks untill GPD will certainly fix whatsever's causing this (if it's common, because otherwise they won't sell any more WINS), and rebuy one then. I have no intention of accepting a 350 euros game handheld which simply does not play games, crashes, has blue screens, etc.


I have tested one of our wins with some 3d test for an hour without any crash so I think that is OK, its with the original BIOS and original windows installation. When you receive your unit, test before without any changes, it works for me.

Regards

Offcourse i test it first i hope it works! Thanks for trying. But just curious did you try re5 or pcmark 2003? Thats what everyone uses for testing. Also... You did get 8700 right? Not 8750 somehow? I really dont want to have to return it,but given almost everyone in the other thread has crashes in spades i am not very hopefull ... It would be a shame it looks awsome when it works!

Oh and @Web8bits my tracking number still does not work, is this normal?




eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 07:01:27 pm »
But as to the crashes @Web8bits look at the last pages of the indiegogo thread. Its insane. But offcourse i will try it before even thinking about returning it, i hope it works well. Everything but the crashes seems great.

RonSwazy

  • Posts: 9
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 10:58:24 pm »
I just recieved my Win today and booted up Resident Evil 4 with all settings on low. After 30 minutes the Win gets very hot and crashes consistently even with the fan at max. I will mess around with some more settings but pretty bummed

davidgilmour

  • Posts: 317
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 03:11:42 pm »
I just recieved my Win today and booted up Resident Evil 4 with all settings on low. After 30 minutes the Win gets very hot and crashes consistently even with the fan at max. I will mess around with some more settings but pretty bummed
That does not look good!

Oshin

  • Posts: 58
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 03:12:43 pm »
How much airflow are people finding with the fan on there WIN's ? Even on max I can't really feel any air flow on my model, I kind of wonder where the heat is going..

RetroVortex

  • Posts: 118
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2016, 04:39:44 pm »
I think the real cause. For me at least is that the passive thermals are set way too low by default.
Mine works fine. All I did was put the passive thermals up 5-10 degrees for each one (can't remember exactly I was just messing about on it), and enable DTS and turn off notifications in windows.
I have had two BSODs but both of those were from downloading and installing a lot of things at once.
Haven't had a BSOD or a game crash or any throttling since on my Win.
(I think letting the default windows that's on it install it's updates helps too)

I will say you have to keep an eye on background processes.
Windows updater can take up to and sometimes even more than  20% of the CPU at times.
(AVG does as well when it's scanning. In fact any sort of media scanning/large scale writing the Win doesn't seem to like too much, which is understandable due to the memory it runs of)

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2016, 05:20:19 pm »
I think the real cause. For me at least is that the passive thermals are set way too low by default.
Mine works fine. All I did was put the passive thermals up 5-10 degrees for each one (can't remember exactly I was just messing about on it), and enable DTS and turn off notifications in windows.
I have had two BSODs but both of those were from downloading and installing a lot of things at once.
Haven't had a BSOD or a game crash or any throttling since on my Win.
(I think letting the default windows that's on it install it's updates helps too)

I will say you have to keep an eye on background processes.
Windows updater can take up to and sometimes even more than  20% of the CPU at times.
(AVG does as well when it's scanning. In fact any sort of media scanning/large scale writing the Win doesn't seem to like too much, which is understandable due to the memory it runs of)

To what exactly did you put them?

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2016, 05:46:02 pm »
I just recieved my Win today and booted up Resident Evil 4 with all settings on low. After 30 minutes the Win gets very hot and crashes consistently even with the fan at max. I will mess around with some more settings but pretty bummed

@RonSwazy try the bios changes listed by retrovortex and report back if re4 doesnt crash anymore :)

RetroVortex

  • Posts: 118
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2016, 08:21:33 pm »
I think the real cause. For me at least is that the passive thermals are set way too low by default.
Mine works fine. All I did was put the passive thermals up 5-10 degrees for each one (can't remember exactly I was just messing about on it), and enable DTS and turn off notifications in windows.
I have had two BSODs but both of those were from downloading and installing a lot of things at once.
Haven't had a BSOD or a game crash or any throttling since on my Win.
(I think letting the default windows that's on it install it's updates helps too)

I will say you have to keep an eye on background processes.
Windows updater can take up to and sometimes even more than  20% of the CPU at times.
(AVG does as well when it's scanning. In fact any sort of media scanning/large scale writing the Win doesn't seem to like too much, which is understandable due to the memory it runs of)

To what exactly did you put them?
Here's my settings. Take them with a grain of salt. I upped them to values I thought I'd see in a laptop or something.
Note when I enabled high performance mode it actually made my driver crashes worse. Like constant crash loop bad.

eragon2890 (OP)

  • Posts: 1887
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 09:10:57 am »
Look in the problems thread.... myth confirmed~


speculatrix

  • Posts: 4
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 09:22:31 pm »
it occurs to me that maybe the 8750 could be more stable than the 8700.

Intel will be trying to make the best possible devices, and when testing/binning, any which cannot be sold as an 8750 will be sold as lesser devices. So an 8700 is likely to be one which cannot go faster, but an 8750 is fast enough to be one, and might even be able to go faster still?


Maniac

  • Posts: 421
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2016, 03:41:31 am »
It's not too surprising, these are $37(?) chips. I highly doubt Intel tests them as rigorously as the Skylake chips. Also, these are BGA chips... meaning they get soldered to the board - which begs the question, does Intel even check the chips at all?

Oshin

  • Posts: 58
Re: I think I got where the problems come from, maybe
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2016, 12:12:49 pm »
It's not too surprising, these are $37(?) chips. I highly doubt Intel tests them as rigorously as the Skylake chips. Also, these are BGA chips... meaning they get soldered to the board - which begs the question, does Intel even check the chips at all?

I think 99% of the uses of the Atom were for a tablet with passive cooling. I think as far as intel were concerned, as long as it could handle web browsing and youtube they didn't care. Throttling would usually make 3d performance so disappointing they probably thought they could get away it with. Moreover as you said its a $37 chip, Intel probably didn't want vendors putting them into 11" notebooks with a fan and CPU. The z8700 seems to be 20% faster than the Celeron N3050 a typical netbook processor, while being more than half the list price, so it would a be sneaky way to get better performance for less.

 

Post a new topic