Author Topic: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO  (Read 1009231 times)

LordDavon

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2016, 08:10:48 pm »
I have to say, the fundraising is going like a space shuttle launch! they have 7.5 of 8 weeks left and are on 336% ... and it actually seems to be accelerating (the rate with which they rake in $$$) I mean just yesterday after 4 days Kendy was happy he had 55 preorders, now there are 120....

That's the issue.  If they reach the goal, very little is going to change on the device.  I think the current campaign is very counterproductive on getting this device right.  I'm not supporting the campaign because I hoped that I would make my statement that the device is wrong with my wallet.  I think some people are jumping on the device as a preorder, fearing that the price is going to go up, and hoping for change.

I've decided to get a different tablet and use my iPega with it.

leafar

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2016, 09:04:56 pm »
I am not supporting yet,because,for they are not making the right device for the end in 2016,  the Wifi,SOC and keyboard. I will wait for second batch.I do hope they understand this and the campaign is going to be a warp.Even i did give free Ads posting sone comments in couples websites, like i did before. good luck

AVahne

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2016, 10:12:59 pm »
I agree.  At a minimum, consider moving one of the two vertical rows on the right to the left side to better center the keyboard.

That....could actually be an easier change for GPD than any of the others. It still would not be ideal, but at the very least the keyboard would be centered.
Still...having the power button, Start/Select, and L3/R3 buttons in the keyboard area is the worst idea they've came up with. They're almost guaranteeing that no one will be using those buttons during gaming.
My guess is that someone on the design team saw a gaming keyboard with macro keys and decided that it would be cool to copy that design for the gaming handheld, while replacing the macro key idea with Power and gamepad buttons.

Again for l3 and r3 the most important, critical thing is you can reach them while using their respective analog sticks, which is totally mission impossible on the GPD XD .

left analog left, l3 other side of handheld, great. Improvement over XD. I would prefer R3 to be somewhere on left side of GPD win, but given you don't usually have to *keep* it pressed (for running like with L3) it's okay there.

I agree the keyboard will not be very good for long typing sessions with this layout. But I think l3 and r3 during gaming will not be a problem, altough the location in the mockups might look very strange indeed and I understand everyone's anxiety, I think l3 and r3 will be quite okay when you get used to gaming on it.

But the thing is too expensive for my tastes anyway.

I have to say, the fundraising is going like a space shuttle launch! they have 7.5 of 8 weeks left and are on 336% ... and it actually seems to be accelerating (the rate with which they rake in $$$) I mean just yesterday after 4 days Kendy was happy he had 55 preorders, now there are 120....

I understand your point about need L3 and R3 to be in position where they can hit while using the analog sticks (btw, with this layout that will only be possible with L3; R3 will be even more impossible to use than on the XD and is one of my reasons for despising the current layout), but these buttons are now in a position where they're basically going to blend in with every other key around them. They're all using the same BAD key cap as the keyboard and they're lined up in a way that makes it easy to press both at the same time (actually this is a problem with their keyboard in general; their current keycap design makes it nearly impossible to differentiate between adjacent keys).
And thing is, with their position and general lack of tactile identity, most people will be forced to look down from the screen and then look right in order to FIND the L3, R3, Start, and Select keys and then press them without accidentally pressing another key and having to be that careful will not only break immersion, it'll also waste precious time in competitive or difficult single player games.


Also, why isn't anyone complaining about the key cap? So far we've only complained about the layout, but the caps themselves will play a part in making the overall typing experience horrible as well considering how close all the keys are to each other.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 10:14:50 pm by AVahne »

Saber

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2016, 10:20:47 pm »
...
I agree the keyboard will not be very good for long typing sessions with this layout. But I think l3 and r3 during gaming will not be a problem, altough the location in the mockups might look very strange indeed and I understand everyone's anxiety, I think l3 and r3 will be quite okay when you get used to gaming on it.
...
I wish I shared your confidence but personally I don't see how easy it will be to hold L3 or R3 with the right thumb while the left thumb is gunning the left joystick. The majority of your right hand will basically be lightly touching the console, in other words in limbo, because the L3/R3 buttons are so near the perimeter.

I'd rather they jettison the two unconnected columns and move those keys above the keyboard like this: http://i.imgur.com/g6Bdv9w.png, or something of similar semblance, which should satisfy the Left Joystick and L3 opposing requirement.


eragon2890

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2016, 10:23:40 pm »
I agree.  At a minimum, consider moving one of the two vertical rows on the right to the left side to better center the keyboard.

That....could actually be an easier change for GPD than any of the others. It still would not be ideal, but at the very least the keyboard would be centered.
Still...having the power button, Start/Select, and L3/R3 buttons in the keyboard area is the worst idea they've came up with. They're almost guaranteeing that no one will be using those buttons during gaming.
My guess is that someone on the design team saw a gaming keyboard with macro keys and decided that it would be cool to copy that design for the gaming handheld, while replacing the macro key idea with Power and gamepad buttons.

Again for l3 and r3 the most important, critical thing is you can reach them while using their respective analog sticks, which is totally mission impossible on the GPD XD .

left analog left, l3 other side of handheld, great. Improvement over XD. I would prefer R3 to be somewhere on left side of GPD win, but given you don't usually have to *keep* it pressed (for running like with L3) it's okay there.

I agree the keyboard will not be very good for long typing sessions with this layout. But I think l3 and r3 during gaming will not be a problem, altough the location in the mockups might look very strange indeed and I understand everyone's anxiety, I think l3 and r3 will be quite okay when you get used to gaming on it.

But the thing is too expensive for my tastes anyway.

I have to say, the fundraising is going like a space shuttle launch! they have 7.5 of 8 weeks left and are on 336% ... and it actually seems to be accelerating (the rate with which they rake in $$$) I mean just yesterday after 4 days Kendy was happy he had 55 preorders, now there are 120....

I understand your point about need L3 and R3 to be in position where they can hit while using the analog sticks (btw, with this layout that will only be possible with L3; R3 will be even more impossible to use than on the XD and is one of my reasons for despising the current layout), but these buttons are now in a position where they're basically going to blend in with every other key around them. They're all using the same BAD key cap as the keyboard and they're lined up in a way that makes it easy to press both at the same time (actually this is a problem with their keyboard in general; their current keycap design makes it nearly impossible to differentiate between adjacent keys).
And thing is, with their position and general lack of tactile identity, most people will be forced to look down from the screen and then look right in order to FIND the L3, R3, Start, and Select keys and then press them without accidentally pressing another key and having to be that careful will not only break immersion, it'll also waste precious time in competitive or difficult single player games.


Also, why isn't anyone complaining about the key cap? So far we've only complained about the layout, but the caps themselves will play a part in making the overall typing experience horrible as well considering how close all the keys are to each other.

Hm, maybe... I do see your point (and yes R3 with right stick, this will be impossible... but you don't have too usually, it's only ever used for aiming down the scope and the like... l3 is used for sprinting so it's more important..) aobut it being immersive breaking... but I think it comes down to muscle memory. When people get used to it, muscle memory will make sure they know where to hit without looking. It works for anything.

As for the keycaps... I agree the keys are too close together (but maybe not solvable on such a small device? ) but Kendy said that the keys do have to be pressed reasonably hard to actually register, so that should not be a problem at least...

all in all I agree it's far from ideal, I just don't think it's feasible to make it much better, also considering the already tremendous challenge of not letting the device overheat... In fact that in my mind is a bigger risk... overheating. It's a miracle the XD stays as cool as it does, but this will be even more difficult to keep from throttling...

eragon2890

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2016, 10:26:14 pm »
...
I agree the keyboard will not be very good for long typing sessions with this layout. But I think l3 and r3 during gaming will not be a problem, altough the location in the mockups might look very strange indeed and I understand everyone's anxiety, I think l3 and r3 will be quite okay when you get used to gaming on it.
...
I wish I shared your confidence but personally I don't see how easy it will be to hold L3 or R3 with the right thumb while the left thumb is gunning the left joystick. The majority of your right hand will basically be lightly touching the console, in other words in limbo, because the L3/R3 buttons are so near the perimeter.

I'd rather they jettison the two unconnected columns and move those keys above the keyboard like this: http://i.imgur.com/g6Bdv9w.png, or something of similar semblance, which should satisfy the Left Joystick and L3 opposing requirement.

Hm... the keyboard surely looks better there, much better, but... the position of l3 and r3 I figure are to far inwares.. would get cramps thinking about pressing them,,, and couldn't do it quickly in a pinch... I rather have them where they are.

But I think the best position is simply where they are on the XD but reversed. It might look strange to have l3 next to the right analog and vice versa, sure, but it would be great using them, and the l3/r3 on the XD are ergonomically placed and work great. Just swap them and you're done, I figure...

AVahne

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2016, 05:06:51 am »
Hm, maybe... I do see your point (and yes R3 with right stick, this will be impossible... but you don't have too usually, it's only ever used for aiming down the scope and the like... l3 is used for sprinting so it's more important..) aobut it being immersive breaking... but I think it comes down to muscle memory. When people get used to it, muscle memory will make sure they know where to hit without looking. It works for anything.

As for the keycaps... I agree the keys are too close together (but maybe not solvable on such a small device? ) but Kendy said that the keys do have to be pressed reasonably hard to actually register, so that should not be a problem at least...

all in all I agree it's far from ideal, I just don't think it's feasible to make it much better, also considering the already tremendous challenge of not letting the device overheat... In fact that in my mind is a bigger risk... overheating. It's a miracle the XD stays as cool as it does, but this will be even more difficult to keep from throttling...

Actually I think most shooters would be using R3 for knife, like on consoles. I've only known just a very small percentage of games using R3 for scope.
Also to clarify about the keycaps, I'm talking about the sides of the caps. It looks like it would be difficult to differentiate between the keys on the left and right of them. This would be much less of a problem if they made the sides slope or curve just like they do for the north and south sides of the keys.

Melquiades

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2016, 06:35:33 am »
Free advice:

a) Remove the keyboard altogether (maybe put a touchpad in any case).
b) Reduce the price to 250 USD max. you guys need a reality check.
c) Release a cheaper "LITE" version with baytrail at 200 USD.

LordDavon

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2016, 07:36:09 am »
I ordered a Linx Vision 8.  Think I am going to get the Teclast X98 Pro and use it with my iPega 9023 too.  I just read that x360ce works with the iPega, so Xbox One streaming will work also.  So, I think I will be all set to wait for this to come out and make sure the keyboard is right before ordering.

Deen0X

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2016, 09:25:17 am »
quick suggestion about the keyboard:



Edit: Fixed.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 10:21:01 am by Deen0X »

Saber

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2016, 12:06:49 pm »
I agree the keyboard will not be very good for long typing sessions with this layout. But I think l3 and r3 during gaming will not be a problem, altough the location in the mockups might look very strange indeed and I understand everyone's anxiety, I think l3 and r3 will be quite okay when you get used to gaming on it.
...
I'd rather they jettison the two unconnected columns and move those keys above the keyboard like this: http://i.imgur.com/g6Bdv9w.png, or something of similar semblance, which should satisfy the Left Joystick and L3 opposing requirement.
Hm... the keyboard surely looks better there, much better, but... the position of l3 and r3 I figure are to far inwares.. would get cramps thinking about pressing them,,, and couldn't do it quickly in a pinch... I rather have them where they are.

But I think the best position is simply where they are on the XD but reversed. It might look strange to have l3 next to the right analog and vice versa, sure, but it would be great using them, and the l3/r3 on the XD are ergonomically placed and work great. Just swap them and you're done, I figure...
I concur in that I'd appreciate L3 and R3 adjacent to the joysticks but GPD skipped putting them up there for the time being and I see no further indication they can or will accommodate them unfortunately. In my compromised layout, even with smaller hands I can easily reach L3 and R3 where they are, but I surmised given the current Win design that GPD was committed with prioritizing PgUp and PgDn placements over L3 and R3.  :)

leafar

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2016, 04:23:11 pm »
there are some question in the campaign about compatibility,can somebody explained,it whould be appreciated

Saber

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2016, 11:43:21 pm »
For all it's worth, again I revised the official GPD Win layout:


Deen0X

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2016, 12:31:13 am »
Saber
why don?t locate L3 and R3 on the extremes of your button bar?

L3 - Select - VOL- - VOL+ - POWER     <Mouse Switch>   KeyMapper - PgUp - PgDn - Start - R3

or

Select - VOL- - VOL+ - POWER  - L3   <Mouse Switch>   R3 - KeyMapper - PgUp - PgDn - Start

anyway,i don?t like the power button location on this bar, because is so easy to accidentally press.

nampad

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2016, 12:52:04 am »
I don't know what is up with you guys. I agree that the placement of the L3/R3 buttons suck on this design but your solutions don't seem much better.

Having the L3/R3 buttons being just another row of face buttons would be the best solution. L3 is used for sprinting in most games and you don't want to get your left thumb off the analog stick for that. Having it be another face button causes no problems. R3 is used mainly for melee, having that as a face button isn't ideal (still have to get your right thumb off the right stick) but it is still workable.

On the plus side, you could remap those buttons for fighting games with a 6 button layout.

And yes, GPD should also fix the keyboard positioning.


About the indiegogo campaign itself. I am not sure if I will go for it. A x86 Windows handheld is a dream come true for me and with GPD behind it, I believe it could actually happen. As others have mentioned already, the crowdfunding campaign is a bit weird coming from an established manufacturer and they haven't considered many things people have asked of them. To be fair though, I don't think all the recommendations here are worthwhile. But in the end, there are many common complains which have been repeated over and over again.

notime2d8

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2016, 02:49:36 am »
I remember the days when we were happy to have L2 & R2..now people are not wanting to buy this because of no L3 & R3...OK. I would buy this even without any of the controller buttons just for the form factor. I'm going to support just so they can get a 2nd version out or either so another company can see the success and make one as well. The only thing close to this you can find now is the old Sony Vaio p which came out years ago and still cost about the same used as this...my point is I'm willing to overlook quite a bit just to get a x86 clamshell device and $600 wouldn't be off in price if the build quality is as good as they say.

nampad

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2016, 03:28:20 am »
I remember the days when we were happy to have L2 & R2..now people are not wanting to buy this because of no L3 & R3...OK. I would buy this even without any of the controller buttons just for the form factor. I'm going to support just so they can get a 2nd version out or either so another company can see the success and make one as well. The only thing close to this you can find now is the old Sony Vaio p which came out years ago and still cost about the same used as this...my point is I'm willing to overlook quite a bit just to get a x86 clamshell device and $600 wouldn't be off in price if the build quality is as good as they say.

People wanted L2/R2 for PS1 emulation, L3/R3 didn't really matter for that much because the games barely supported those buttons.

This device is for Windows games, which use those buttons a lot so it shouldn't be surprising the button layout people need have changed.

vcoleiro1

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2016, 03:37:00 am »
Well this is the layout I would recommend, and below it are the reasons why I believe the current GPD layout should be changed .  Some of the issues with the current GPD layout are critical IMO.

http://i.imgur.com/cksq8aA.jpg




The current GPD keyboard layout as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/NzZuOgq.jpg)   has a few issues that the layout above fixes. These issues include:

1)  Because of the right column of keys (power, select, start, volume etc)   the keyboard has been shifted to the left, in fact the only letter keys on the right side of the device are the  K, L, O, and P keys .   As most people are right handed , this is an issue as it means people will be typing left handed . The proposed keyboard layout moves the right column of keys between the sticks and expands the main keyboard so that it is centered. You can see the left indentation on GPDs current Keyboard layout and the issues I mention here:  http://i.imgur.com/V8kid2C.jpg



2)  L3 and R3 are in unworkabe postions , the whole forum is in agreeance on this issue.  In the proposed layout above, L3 and R3 have been moved near the joysticks .

3)  The keys in the current layout are small , especially for westerners, I have a keyboard with similar sized keys and it takes practice to use without hitting 2 keys at once.  By expanding the main keyboard as in my proposal, the keys can now be made 8.6mm x 7.5mm in size .   This will greatly help reduce double key presses.

4) Keys that are missing in the current GPD keyboard layout , have been added in the above proposed keyboard layout.   Pg Up, Pg Down, Home and End have been added as function keys on the arrow keys.   Numpad keys have been added as secondary numpad labels on some main keyboard keys, they are shown in yellow.  To support the numpad key labels , a NumLock key has been added near the space bar.

5) Have a look at F1 to F7, how would you press those buttons while holding the Fn key with your left thumb? 
    To fix this issue , I have made the Fn key a Fn Lock key instead.  This will also help with games that use game controls , and only the function keys on the keyboard ie it will save you having to hit the Fn key every time - you would just enable the Fn Lock instead.

6)  Keyboard and Mouse Mode enable/disable keys have been added in the center.

7)  LED lights shown as blue dots on the sides have been added in the proposed keyboard layout . These LEDs indicate: Power On, Caps on, NumLock On,  Mouse Mode On, Keyboard enabled, Fn Lock On


Finally, guys, remember any change to the keyboard layout that moves the keys even a millimeter will require the whole  keyboard PCB layout to need revising.  So there is absolutely no point what so ever pussy footing around with layouts that give you some of what you want, on the belief that you are minimising changes, you're not. It also sends a confused message to GPD.  If you want L3/R3 near the sticks, then say so, and leave it that.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 06:44:32 am by vcoleiro1 »

ker

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2016, 03:48:43 am »
It's a non sense. They already located L3/R3 buttons correctly in GPD XD. Why are you trying to find a worst location guys? Just let L3/R3 where they deserve

notime2d8

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Re: GPD WIN on INDIEGOGO
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2016, 03:52:44 am »
Did anyone ask if clickable joysticks are possible? Seems like an easy fix that should make most happy.