Author Topic: Preliminary concept design of Windows 10 handheld device (Read 52964 times)

eragon2890 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2015, 10:40:11 am »

Quote from: lemmywinks on December 28, 2015, 09:23:44 am

Quote from: AVahne on December 28, 2015, 03:27:48 am
Considering the amount of power this could pack, it's more of a rival for the yet-to-be-released Pyra. Will be interesting to see how people react to them both.

I think a Windows handheld would eclipse both by a fair margin, there's no competition for the software library it would offer. That's without even considering the price difference which is going to be huge.

The only problem tough with this handheld is going to be the shit gpu. The intel gpu in cherrytrail may be faster then before, but it?s massacred wholy by the mali-t764 in the XD. Look up atom vs rk3288 benchmarks in intensive 3d scenes, it?s sad (for the atom).

I have seen gaming video on youtube of gaming on these chipsets, even something as light as cs: go or team fortress2, at their absolute lowest settings possible at 1024x768 sometimes went under 30fps. Cs go was playable, but team fortress 2 was not IMHO - lots of time it was at ~15 fps. Again, at the lowest of the low settings at sub-720p resolution. And TF2 is a light game.

I am not at all convinced this thing is going to be better for gaming then the XD. You can not run team fortress 2 on it, but something like modern combat 4 or nova 3 gives absolutely awesome cod - or nova like multiplayer matches with 6 or more different game modes and vehicles and everything, looks absolutely stunning and runs at solid 60fps.

I just don?t see anything close to it happening here as long as those GPU?s remain as shit as they are.

I believe what GPD should really, REALLY do, is find a way to couple the atom's x86 CPU with the mali-t764 from the XD or maybe the t-768. Especially with the 768 I am pretty sure it could run games like skyrim, just cause2, borderlands2, team fortress 2 etc. pretty well. With this chipset, no way....

Deen0X · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2015, 10:52:10 am »

i'm not agree.

i usually play on my teclast device, a baytrail SoC with 2GB ram, and play many titles that i not consider as "light" games.

some examples
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXPqQ3mj-_IcP0aevb4JoI_tqYV-mLqSi

- Darksiders 1
- Darksiders 2
- Alice Madness Return
- Batman Arkham saga (Origin, Assylum, City)
- Batman Origins Blackgate (esto en un meegopad)
- Lego Marvel Superheroes
- Remember me
- Mirror's Edge
- DmC Devil May Cry
- Tomb Raider 2013
- Assassin's Creed 1
- Assassin's Creed 2
- Deus Ex Human Revolution
- Burnout Paradise
- Dead Space 1
- Street Fighter x Tekken
- Ultra Street Fighter IV
- Blades of time
- Alan Wake
- Halo Spartan Assault
- Papo and Me
- Sleeping Dogs
- Insane 2
- Dust An Elysian Tail
- Dishonored
- Guilty Gear Isuka

and more.

most of these tiltes are PS3/X360 titles, and are NOT indies.

yes, you must adapt the game settings for playing, most times on low resolution, but guys, this is a 5.5" handheld device. MOST GAMES RUNS FINE AT 800x600 or venen 640x480!

yes, is not a gaming pc, but is fine for playing games in portable mode.

please, understand that this is a windows pc device, that will target low cost. You can't ask for high end gaming device keeping low price.
the most important is that GPD release this device, no matter the SoC they will use. Even with Baytrail will be fine in my opinion.

Next, always they can improve this device and release another versions with better SoC. Is the usual.

EvilDragon · « **Reply #22 on:** December 31, 2015, 10:23:29 am »

Quote from: lemmywinks on December 28, 2015, 09:23:44 am

Quote from: AVahne on December 28, 2015, 03:27:48 am
Considering the amount of power this could pack, it's more of a rival for the yet-to-be-released Pyra. Will be interesting to see how people react to them both.

I think a Windows handheld would eclipse both by a fair margin, there's no competition for the software library it would offer. That's without even considering the price difference which is going to be huge.

True, but a lot of Windows games these days are optimized for 17" FullHD screens, so they might have unreadable fonts on a 5.5" screen.

During development of the Pyra, I tried a 1080p 5" screen and immediately scrapped it for a 720p screen.
Even the Start Menu would've been barely readable, so everything would have to be scaled up.

While Windows offers a tons of games, only a fraction will be enjoyable and the user will have to fiddle around a lot with it, whereas with Android systems or dedicated devices like the Pandora, Dingoo or GCW, you can expect the ports to run fine on the system as they were made for them.

So there's a high quantity vs. quality.

It's both an upside and a downside. A lot of users don't care and are happy to try out all games whereas other users just want to play and get annoyed if they have to try first to see how well it runs.

Remember: Mostly all Windows games need to be installed first, so it might be you wait for half an hour to install it, then start the game just to find out it's too slow, then you deinstall.
This can be annoying.

So yes, all systems have their ups and downs:
Windows has tons of games, but takes time to install and not all are playable.

Android is optimized for small mobile games, but a lot of the games don't support controls out of the box so you need to configure some overlay tools.

And Linux handhelds have optimized ported games but of course are mostly lacking the commercial games, so you've got a lower quantity to choose from.

Each system will find its fans, I guess

eragon2890 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2015, 12:27:12 pm »

Quote from: EvilDragon on December 31, 2015, 10:23:29 am

Quote from: lemmywinks on December 28, 2015, 09:23:44 am
Quote from: AVahne on December 28, 2015, 03:27:48 am
Considering the amount of power this could pack, it's more of a rival for the yet-to-be-released Pyra. Will be interesting to see how people react to them both.

I think a Windows handheld would eclipse both by a fair margin, there's no competition for the software library it would offer. That's without even considering the price difference which is going to be huge.

True, but a lot of Windows games these days are optimized for 17" FullHD screens, so they might have unreadable fonts on a 5.5" screen.

During development of the Pyra, I tried a 1080p 5" screen and immediately scrapped it for a 720p screen.
Even the Start Menu would've been barely readable, so everything would have to be scaled up.

While Windows offers a tons of games, only a fraction will be enjoyable and the user will have to fiddle around a lot with it, whereas with Android systems or dedicated devices like the Pandora, Dingoo or GCW, you can expect the ports to run fine on the system as they were made for them.

So there's a high quantity vs. quality.

It's both an upside and a downside. A lot of users don't care and are happy to try out all games whereas other users just want to play and get annoyed if they have to try first to see how well it runs.

Remember: Mostly all Windows games need to be installed first, so it might be you wait for half an hour to install it, then start the game just to find out it's too slow, then you deinstall.
This can be annoying.

So yes, all systems have their ups and downs:
Windows has tons of games, but takes time to install and not all are playable.

Android is optimized for small mobile games, but a lot of the games don't support controls out of the box so you need to configure some overlay tools.

And Linux handhelds have optimized ported games but of course are mostly lacking the commercial games, so you've got a lower quantity to choose from.

And a very important point to add here is that a ton of windows games have been ported to android. GTA series, star wars kotor, 2 oddworld games, max payne, tomb raider 1 and 2, quake1/2/3, imperium galactica, icewind dale, baldurs gate, the list goes on and on and on.

These games run great ont he XD almost always support the controls and are remakes with at least a lot higher resolution and widescreen support and often other graphical improvements as well (GTA san andreas for example with dynamic shadows and reflections on every object to name one). There are also a ton of console ports like jet set radio, crazy taxi, all the sonic games, bards tale, ff1-6, etc. not all of which exist for pc.

So the biggest problem for me is, a lot ofreally good old games that might with an incredible amount of work (to get them running under windows 10) be maybe semi-playable on this thing (no widescreen, shit graphics, shit controls etc.) have an upgraded version which practically always cost 5 euros or usually even a lot less then that which I can just install and play in three seconds on my XD looking much better filling the whole screen and working with the controller.

So no thank you XD

And even if the pc versions have not been brought to android, don?t forget the old ones like abe?s oddysey and such often had psx versions as well so just throw those on epsxe and you are done also...

Each system will find its fans, I guess

10basetom · « **Reply #24 on:** January 01, 2016, 05:26:36 am »

Every platform has its strengths and weaknesses, but for me Windows has the most positives against the fewest negatives. A Windows device gives you the most flexibility in how you want to get your game on:

Play native Windows games (Win 95/98 to present)
Play Windows 8/10 app store games
Play Steam games
Play DOS games (natively, through DOSBox, or GOG)
Play Linux games (install a distro)
Play Android games (AMIDuOS, Genymotion, BlueStacks)
Play retro games (x86 has the widest and most mature selection of emulators, from Amiga to ZX Spectrum)
Play Flash games on Kongregate, etc.
Stream Steam games if it runs too slow
Stream Xbox One/360 games (like the Linx Vision)
Stream PS4 games (soon to be available)

A portable Windows gaming machine with at least 1024 x 768 resolution and 7-inch screen would be very high on my "to buy" list ^^.

EvilDragon · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2016, 04:17:37 pm »

Quote from: 10basetom on January 01, 2016, 05:26:36 am

Play native Windows games (Win 95/98 to present)

Yes and no. Some (or many, no idea) Win95/98 games are not compatible with Windows 10 but most WinXP games will run flawlessly.

Quote

Play DOS games (natively, through DOSBox, or GOG)

Not a Windows strength, as that works with any other DOSBox port as well (Linux, Android, etc.)
Win10 doesn't have a DOS included anymore (command line is not DOS), so I doubt you'll get DOS games to run natively.
GOG usually uses DOSBox as well, I'm playing many GOG games on the Pandora

Quote

Play Linux games (install a distro)

If a distro can be easily installed. It probably will be, but we don't know yet.
Also, depending on what hardware is included, you might have issues with the drivers (capacitive touchscreen, Wifi, etc.)

Quote

Play Android games (AMIDuOS, Genymotion, BlueStacks)

Yes and no. Simple Apps will run natively (Java), all games using C++ code have to be emulated, so speed might be good or not.
I don't know about compatibility with games, but from what I read, it's somewhat basic right now but will be improved in the future.

Quote

Play retro games (x86 has the widest and most mature selection of emulators, from Amiga to ZX Spectrum)

Not sure about that.
What emulator is there on Windows that you're missing on Android / Linux?
I don't know of any system that's being emulated on Windows that's not available for ARM as well.

Quote

Play Flash games on Kongregate, etc.

My Pandora can play Flash games with a dedicated flash player fine as well. Yes, the flash player is a bit older, but so are most flash games as newer games are usually coded in HTML5

I'm sure there's also similar players for Android (though I haven't looked, I'm not into Flash games)

Quote

Stream Steam games if it runs too slow
Stream Xbox One/360 games (like the Linx Vision)
Stream PS4 games (soon to be available)

This heavily depends on the Wifi chip that's included.
It could very well be it's not fast enough (mobile Wifi chips usually aren't the best ones).

Quote

A portable Windows gaming machine with at least 1024 x 768 resolution and 7-inch screen would be very high on my "to buy" list ^^.

7-inch? That's basically a netbook with an external controller ;)

So yes, Windows has its advantages, but not many of the ones you mentioned are exclusive.
Solutions for those exist for Android and Linux as well.

The Pyra Devboard can also run many classic and even some not-so-old Windows games through WINE and ExaGear (i.e. stuff like Diablo 2 runs without any issues).

Yes. it's a workaround using a software, but so is running Android Apps on Windows :)

So it depends what your focus is. :)

Deen0X · « **Reply #26 on:** January 01, 2016, 05:38:46 pm »

the best option in my opinion is dual boot, because the main focus of this kind of device will be play your windows compatible titles (mainly steam), and android for other stuff (games, apps) that run better than windows (i prefer android maps than maps on windows, for example)

and if the device can boot from external drives such pendrive/microsd, then you will get another good choice for adding more operating systems to the device.

As example, you can run SteamOS or Linux from a pendrive/microSD, without touching the current operating system on the device.

leafar · « **Reply #27 on:** January 01, 2016, 05:57:38 pm »

Deenox you got it first dual boot is only acceptable option.but,
Can somebody make a machine with all the hardware working mostly in Linux like Evildragon says and we know about the driver problem,or what about a new Pyra with a dual boot in the feature.?...
To me to play a full scale in a Windows machine it should be more than 8 inches screen 10 even better,but I have to say with those prototypes is like are missing something,think about portability,overclocking,funtcionability,handlebility and consolebility.

EvilDragon · « **Reply #28 on:** January 01, 2016, 06:03:07 pm »

Quote from: leafar on January 01, 2016, 05:57:38 pm

Deenox you got it first dual boot is only acceptable option.but,
Can somebody make a machine with all the hardware working mostly in Linux like Evildragon says and we know about the driver problem,or what about a new Pyra with a dual boot in the feature.?...

The Pyra CAN dual boot without any issues, why do you need a new one for that?
You've got an internal eMMC, an internal (but accessible by opening the battery compartment) MicroSD slot and two big SD slots outside.

You can boot from any of those and put multiple partitions on the cards to boot whatever you want.

But let's not derail this thread, it's about the Windows 10 handheld from GPD, not the Pyra

Deen0X · « **Reply #29 on:** January 01, 2016, 06:09:47 pm »

for 10", there are Edge Razer Pro

8" is not a portable device really (well, for me maybe... but is on the edge)
5-6" is a really portable device for playing.

currently we have SoC that provide full functionality (drivers, graphic acceleration, etc) that are common: baytrail, cherrytrail and *.trail that release on future.

these socs are realively cheap for manufacturing other devices based on it. then is easy to think that a dual system with android and windows will be released, but all other operating systems you want to try to boot here will be success depend on their support for these kind of SoC.

in another words, if someone release a driver for Ubuntu for any machine with this soc, most probably will get the same working on other machines with the same soc.

maybe the difference is on the touch driver, but this always is an exceptional point when you want to give support for other operating systems.

(sorry if i?m not clear today... i'm a little bit... happy because the new year) XDDDDD

leafar · « **Reply #30 on:** January 01, 2016, 08:08:46 pm »

Sorry the misunderstanding I know that pyra has dual boot and strong optimization for hardware and software but the SOC is Arm base, I am talking about Windows and android and third-party Linux,no yet.
The new device the SOC need maybe a full of hardware support drivers well said.
And happy New year

shinkamui · « **Reply #31 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:03:52 pm »

Im sorry, but anyone who thinks an atom based SoC is a bad idea is sorely mistaken. You can boot android, linux, and windows. Flexibility and diversity is always your best option when you're not necessarily a developer. It gives you more opportunities to get the experience you want, and enables more people to enjoy a product. Larger community, more updates. Finally, you guys have the XD now, if you're happy with it, then let the next device evolve. Im bat shit pissed with the poor xd performance, and anxiously await ANYTHING else in a similar form factor that can offer better performance. I have a venue 8 7840, and it runs exceptionally well, driving a 2k oled panel, so anyone crying foul about atom performance is may be comparing apples to rocks. let me remind you, YOU CAN'T PLAY CRYSIS NOW on the XD, so crying about performance issues with crysis on an atom based windows handheld is pointless. If it ran android, you stilli couldn't do it natively. Let me also remind you that you have the same streaming options in windows that you have on android. We have more software diversity with a windows tab, and the option to run android or linux on it. The nice thing about the atom, is that there are already really good starting points for building an android or linux boot without requiring a custom development environment, cross compiling knowledge, proprietary drivers, etc. It opens the doors up quite a bit. Today, you're stuck with whatever GPD gives you for firmware on the XD. For some of you, this is fine, for others you know the same frustration I do. Performance wise, its not even worth working on.

I look forward to this new handheld, hopefully it ships before the end of q3 2016.

EvilDragon · « **Reply #32 on:** January 02, 2016, 04:29:21 pm »

No one says it's a bad idea.

The only thing that has been said is that it also has downsides.
I stopped playing PC games after a 386.
I grew up with a C64 and Amiga, and when the Amiga slowly died, I switched to PC gaming and it was horrible.

Each game needed to be setup to work properly (often controls, sound, memory, etc.), when the PC was too old, it ran poorly or didn't run at all.

That killed gaming for me. All I wanted to do after a day of work is relax and play games. The least thing I wanted was first trying to tweak everything so that the games were working at all.

So I switched to consoles (like the PSX, etc.), as that was simply plug and play.

I sometimes tried PC games, but often they needed a long time to install and then, after some crashing, I found out that I needed to install bugfixes.
Well, often, they also ran too slow, as I never kept my PC up-to-date (I didn't want to throw that much money out of the window).

The only thing I still play on PCs are point and click adventures and some strategy games like Civilization 5, simply because they work best with a mouse and I don't really feel like playing games like Civ5 on a 5" or even 10" screen

So yes, my experience with PC games has been horrible, mainly because it takes time to find out whether your system is good enough for the game before buying it and then optimizing your system so it works properly after you bought it.

If I got a PS3, I know every PS3 game will run

Yes, that's me, but it sure shows some downsides. That doesn't mean it's a bad system that no one wants, but it shows that simply having a Windows handheld does not solve everything.

Seeing how many users here are coming from Dingoo or other dedicated handheld devices, it could very well be that all that installing, etc. of Windows games only to find out the screen is too small to be enjoyable for some games are annoying for those as well.

We'll see that, and I'm looking forward seeing the finished machine up and running, but I'd probably use it more for other stuff than for gaming

shinkamui · « **Reply #33 on:** January 03, 2016, 12:34:16 am »

pc gaming has changed since the 90s. a massive number of titles on steam support gamepads natively, and there are better options in windows for mapping keyboard/mouse to gamepad and virtual on screen keys than android. for every it cant be done attitude, there are dozens doing and enjoying it.

EvilDragon · « **Reply #34 on:** January 03, 2016, 01:56:38 am »

That's only one aspect - that the controls are mostly standardized these days.

The main issue I have though is that you need to install the games (which takes a while) only to find out they won't work properly, as either your PC is too old / slow (which still happens when you try to play modern games), doesn't have a good enough graphics card or driver or simply because they're not suited for small screens (try playing something like Civilization 5 on a 5" screen).

This is something that CAN be annoying. Not to everyone, but certainly for me.
And as I doubt I'm something special in this world, I guess there are some others who will have the same issues.

I'd love to try it out for mobile video editing with EDIUS though

10basetom · « **Reply #35 on:** January 03, 2016, 04:38:46 am »

If they build a Windows device, a 5-inch screen isn't going to do it for me -- I might as well stick with my GCW or get an XD instead. It would have to have at least a 7-inch 1024 x 768 screen because playing Windows/DOS point & click adventure games and RPGs (my two favorite genres) would be torturous on a smaller screen. Anything that requires quick mouse movements (e.g., RTSs) would also not be fun on a small screen. I dunno, there's always gonna be trade-offs playing games meant for 14-inch monitors on a screen a quarter the size, and each person will have their own threshold. My threshold is seven inches.

AVahne · « **Reply #36 on:** January 03, 2016, 04:48:10 am »

Well they're trying to go with 5.5 inch and either 720p or 1080p. Only slightly bigger than 5 inch but still bigger. Obviously a 7-inch screen like the one on my Samsung Q1UP would be much nicer, but that would mean it loses pocketability. Anyway, I think plenty of people were fine with the OpenPandora's mega tiny 4.3 inch screen and fans of that machine seem happy that the Pyra will have a bigger 5 inch 720p screen, so there's that.

10basetom · « **Reply #37 on:** January 03, 2016, 05:13:08 am »

@EvilDragon, half the fun for me playing DOS games in the 80s and early 90s was getting them to start

. Maybe because I was still in school and didn't have to come home from work I took it as a challenge. I have very fond memories of DOS -- in fact, writing batch scripts and messing around with extended memory managers and TSRs (along with MacPaint, SimCity, Shuffle Puck, LOGO, and Strip Poker on the Macintosh SE/30) were what got me interested in computers in the first place. I'm proud to say that there was never a DOS game I wanted to play that I couldn't get to load with full original Sound Blaster audio ^^.

midknight · « **Reply #38 on:** January 03, 2016, 06:30:04 am »

A windows device could be usable on a 5.5 inch screen I remote into my pc all the time from my s3 and it is perfectly usable not something I would type a paper on but iv caught myself more than once surfing the net while remotely connected the biggest problem is the mouse if you have a pointing device like using the touch screen like a trackpad or using the thumb stick instead its very usable. As long as the screen is not complete garbage it Will work.

shinkamui · « **Reply #39 on:** January 03, 2016, 08:23:18 am »

I still lol a little at the screen size complaints. half of you are gamestreaming today usnig moonlight or your favorite stream server. Whats the difference. Additionally, if you can't play those games on a 5.5" windows device, doesn't that also indicate you're not playing them today using scummvm or the direct PHONE ports? In what kind of world do we live in, that we refuse a new, better gift, because it doesn't do the stuff we cant' do right now, though it does other stuff we can't do as well today? Just like every other change in the industry, once people "get it", they will likely adjust and adapt.

At this point, as long as this tease doesn't end up as vapor, this community is clearly the winner here.