Author Topic: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?  (Read 9881 times)

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2013, 08:43:41 pm »
Are you basically saying that a 1GHz phone with 300+MB of RAM cannot emulate SNES?

If they're running Android, then hell yeah. That is the 'idiot tax' you pay for supporting Google's shit OS over something lightyears ahead of it like Apple's iOS.

When your '1GHz phone with 300+MB RAM' obviously struggles at running Yoshi's Island at fullspeed when a Nintendo Wii runs that very same core (with the very same RetroArch backend) at fullspeed - guess what that tells you?

You are dealing with a garbage operating system - Android OS - that enforces a crappy Java VM. It is run by Google, a company that is such a totally incompetent joke that they keep breaking Android NDK toolchains with every point release. It enforces a garbage collector every minute that will ruin your framerate and audio/video sync. The audio/video latency are still shockingly bad after developers have complained about it for over 4 years and have asked Google to up its game. They still can't. Apple still laughs its ass off everyday seeing silly Google limp ahead with their 'Jelly Bean updates' and creating even more problems with every update than they solve - such as a nice little memory leak in the UI Framework now in 4.2.2.

BTW, read up on the 'Megahertz myth' by Apple anytime soon - clock rates don't count for shit anymore son.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:55:50 pm by Squarepusher2 »

Surkow

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 08:49:57 pm »
Pcercuei is one of the guys behind OpenDingux on the Dingoo A320 and the GCW Zero. Please keep it civil.

Your work is appreciated, but I would appreciate a constructive discussion.

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2013, 08:52:00 pm »
Pcercuei is one of the guys behind OpenDingux on the Dingoo A320 and the GCW Zero. Please keep it civil.

Your work is appreciated, but I would appreciate a constructive discussion.

Remind him of that before he launches into ill-advised stupid remarks which rank highly on the troll scale.

It is common knowledge that Android is dogshit - especially Xperia Play.

pcercuei

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2013, 09:02:10 pm »
If libretro's snes9x runs at 20fps on my phone, it's not because of Android. You can bash Android if you want, that doesn't change the fact that it's not the problem there. Go fix your code, kid.

By the way, you say that libretro was not designed with "really super crap" devices in mind. Just remember the Zero has more or less the power of an Xperia Play.

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2013, 09:09:25 pm »
If libretro's snes9x runs at 20fps on my phone, it's not because of Android.

It can if it's loaded full of crapware Java apps and services that are triggering the garbage collector like no tomorrow, and if you don't properly set your refreshrate right - since we use static syncing (with audio rate control).

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You can bash Android if you want, that doesn't change the fact that it's not the problem there.

It is son. It says enough about your 'coding credentials' that you haven't figured out that basic part yet.

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Go fix your code, kid.

OK 'dad', but before I consider that, are you sure you're even talking about the right core here? There are two 'cores' in RetroArch - one is regular SNES9x (bleeding-edge from Git), and the other is a speedhacked equivalent (Next) based on 1.52.

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By the way, you say that libretro was not designed with "really super crap" devices in mind. Just remember the Zero has more or less the power of an Xperia Play.

If you say you are getting 20fps with a game on SNES9x Next (I presume it is Next at least) with your Xperia Play, then that means you are getting at least 5x less the performance that I am getting with my Cortex A8 Android tablet, and at least 7x slower than a Gamecube.

If you somehow manage to make your GCW Zero run just as crap as your 'favored' device (the Xperia Play), then hell yeah, you have a problem alright - but then, if it can't even match a Gamecube in terms of computational power, I don't see how many people will be interested in your device to begin with - especially with no GL ES hardware acceleration which is pretty much a core requirement these days.

In the end, it really doesn't matter if you don't like RetroArch or not - we already have the vast majority of the userbases in all console/mobile scenes. If you guys don't like it, that's no big deal - we will continue existing and rocking on.

If you want to be a part of this ever-growing ecosystem and build up your own project in the process, do let me know. But last thing I'm going to do is grovel and beg for this thing when I've got major players like Nvidia offering way better devices than this one without having to convince them on 'jack'. I have the momentum, I have the credentials and I don't need to start grovelling to any bit-player startups anytime soon. Guess what you have? Nothing much and everything to prove. That is your basic dilemma there.

Sorry for trying to reach an extending hand and for trying to be nice and willing to help I guess. It is not my problem if a Gamecube and Wii runs better than your piece of shit phone - don't take it out on me - don't shoot the messenger (RetroArch) -  it is trying to rid you of your delusions that you actually have something resembling a 'powerful device'.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:29:19 pm by Squarepusher2 »

onthebridge

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2013, 09:33:12 pm »
I have read all the comments before and, trying to be objective, i have to say that maybe you are right Squarepusher but your way of saying things is way inadequate.

You arrive at a well established community and throw words like "garbage" and "crap" and diminish the work of others. And more than that, when people react to that (a natural reaction if you think) you feel insulted. Not polite at all.

I usually don't participate in these discussions as i am in no way a developer, but i do know what good manners are and you should think about the way you are behaving and how your way of expressing can be interpreted.

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2013, 09:38:55 pm »
I have read all the comments before and, trying to be objective, i have to say that maybe you are right Squarepusher but your way of saying things is way inadequate.

You arrive at a well established community and throw words like "garbage" and "crap" and diminish the work of others. And more than that, when people react to that (a natural reaction if you think) you feel insulted. Not polite at all.

I usually don't participate in these discussions as i am in no way a developer, but i do know what good manners are and you should think about the way you are behaving and how your way of expressing can be interpreted.

I am not a polite guy when it comes to engaging with morons who depreciate my work yeah - especially when what they say is demonstratably wrong.

I am right, this loudmouth 23-year old 'dad' with the Ayla avatar is wrong and he doesn't know what he is talking about - very simple.

And, really, I have been way too kind already today and entered this thread with the best of intentions. But one thing I am NOT going to do is grovel to some startup people who don't even have their stuff together. Sorry, just not going to do it.

Anyway, if you guys have a change of heart, do let me know - otherwise, we sure as hell are not going to buy a GCW Zero ourselves to port it - if you can send it to a guy like zodttd then you sure as hell can send it to us.

RetroArch doesn't need GCW Zero at all (we are on way bigger markets than this), but because I'm nice, I expressed interest and said 'I will do it if you give me a device'. I don't know what much more you want from me - my 'free time' is my most valuable resource - every 'hour' I sink into a project  could sink into my real-life work instead. For me to express interest in investing my time into making a port means I am a pretty swell guy and am offering up my services for free - the paltry amount you have to spend on a 'device' is exactly nothing compared to the amount of time I have to invest in support and releases.

If you are a startup with no prior reputation and if you think you can get 'devs' to 'beg' you for devices - bad idea when Nvidia and Pandora offer them to me for free without going through this bullshit routine. I don't appreciate it and I'm already less interested in this entire thing than I was in the beginning - especially since you guys still don't have your hardware together with regards to GL ES 2 support.

You might have just lost a potentially very valuable dev who could have built up your project. Something to think about the next time before you make others jump through hoops when really you don't have any reasonable expectations for people to jump through those 'hoops' for you - you are not Apple, Google or any major player - you can't afford this kind of 'bridge building' - more humbless is at place here.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:46:56 pm by Squarepusher2 »

Harteex

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2013, 09:53:20 pm »
more humbless is at place here.

I think this also applies to you.
Please see rules #1 and #2.
Let's stop the flaming here, ok?

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2013, 09:59:25 pm »
more humbless is at place here.

I think this also applies to you.
Please see rules #1 and #2.
Let's stop the flaming here, ok?

Your own GCW Zero 'dev teammembers' (like the 23-year old Ayla guy who thinks he is 'older' than me) don't heed those same rules, yet you don't single them out. Very nice pecking order established here. Unfortunately, my name and my project was mentioned in this thread and therefore i thought it would be nice to express some interest in working together but I don't appreciate being given the run-around and 'what do you offer us in return?' and then some snide 'remarks' from some guy who thinks he knows everything yet knows very little about anything.

As for my offer, it's either' take it or leave it' - when I extend my hand to shake hands, I don't expect a 'fist' in return. And I especially don't appreciate it from guys who are far less small fry than I have previously dealt with before.

Also, you don't need to tell me anything anymore - I'm already done here. Don't expect me back.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 10:05:08 pm by Squarepusher2 »

Awakened

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2013, 10:06:31 pm »
From my own perspective, I think the Zero could benefit in emulation quality from having a RetroArch port. Many users want a unified interface for launching ROMs much like what you can get on PCs using frontends. RetroArch can provide this. The iOS version's Cocoa based UI is very intuitive. It starts right at the ROM directory, then you just choose one and the core to emulate it and go. Every core has options for controls, filtering, aspect ratio correction, ect. Plus it has RGUI for configuration in game.

The emulation cores are all based on the latest code available from the emulators they are based on and Squarepusher is very good about updating often. I like having bleeding edge up to date emulation.

Having all of this on the Zero would be make it about on the level of quality I have on my PC, but in my pocket. And without the annoyances of wireless bluetooth controllers with my iPhone.

So despite any arguments here, I hope Justin or someone from the team will send out a unit to the RetroArch guys like they have to other devs.

darksavior

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2013, 09:14:53 am »
It'll be best to email Justin himself and talk about providing a unit. He rarely posts here anymore. As a customer, I would love a whole new set of emulators based on a newer source. Some of these old dingoo ports are appreciated but probably need to start from scratch. Like psx4all and snes9x4d.  Megaman shooting sounds like a cat meowing...and no, increasing the audio above 16khz will not fix that.

fosamax (OP)

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 09:47:16 am »
Seeing the lack of interest from GCW for officially supporting emulation (except for licensing, which could not give us a all in one solution), I would'nt hold my breathe for a gift to any new developer who endorse emulation.

I can see clearly the reason (legitimate emulation and so on) but i'm clearly disapointed when a new dev come here take the time for registering, offering to port a bunch of emus in its free time and got at least a pretty cold "welcome on board".
I'm under the feeling that it may have been easier to just send him a unit (those should not be so expensive to manufacture) and just wait to see if something positive for end users can happen.

Maybe that someone at Willgoo (since they are used to sending unit to skilled peoples) will choose to send a unit to squarepusher2 if he's still in the mood for working with that toy.

Just to be clear, I respect all the work that official devs made and are still making to improve our upcoming zeros but as stated by zear, the more the merrier and GCW Zero needs a better visibility to become a success and i don't think that bashing at people when they come offering an helping hand is the way to go.

The fact that Retroarch/libretro is not a totally brand new project doesn't make it bad. I'm not a big fan of the current android gui and I would prefer for sure to be able to launch every emu as a single one (find it easier) but it would still be possible to make our own custom frontend for it.

At least, Retroarch complies perfectly to opensource, releasing their source and compling to any license like GPL and so on, does'nt charge for its work, does'nt provide ads or push notification.

In the past, bashing over lion_rsm made him disappear but for sure he didn't tried at least to understand the need to release its source. Here, that's not the case and i'm a bit upset in the way that thread has gone.
It's certainly not the good way to attract future customers.
 

ruffnutts

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 09:49:48 am »
Well I love RetroArch bring it on I say  ;)

zear

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 12:32:28 pm »
Just to be clear, I respect all the work that official devs made and are still making to improve our upcoming zeros but as stated by zear, the more the merrier and GCW Zero needs a better visibility to become a success and i don't think that bashing at people when they come offering an helping hand is the way to go.
It's not like that. Despite what I said earlier, we are not a charity and don't have tons of units to give away. Every unit costs and we already have a backlog of developers we are interested to give the units to the next time we have some extra funds.

I will emphasize I don't have much interest in emulation and thus I am not very familiar with the different emulation projects, but I do believe that RetroArch is aiming at ARM architecture platforms. So if the strength of their emulator cores comes from ARM dynarec, their project has nothing to bring to our platform, which is MIPS.

I believe the whole conflict here was in fact started by Squarepusher2, who came here with an attitude "Give me a free unit, your developement skills suck", while at the same time his project has no MIPS dynarec cores to offer, meaning that he would have to start from scratch before we can judge whether he is better than our developers.

He didn't get a cold "welcome on board", we simply don't hand out free units to anybody, especially not to people who criticize our developers.

Squarepusher2

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 01:03:38 pm »
Just to be clear, I respect all the work that official devs made and are still making to improve our upcoming zeros but as stated by zear, the more the merrier and GCW Zero needs a better visibility to become a success and i don't think that bashing at people when they come offering an helping hand is the way to go.
It's not like that. Despite what I said earlier, we are not a charity and don't have tons of units to give away. Every unit costs and we already have a backlog of developers we are interested to give the units to the next time we have some extra funds.

I will emphasize I don't have much interest in emulation and thus I am not very familiar with the different emulation projects, but I do believe that RetroArch is aiming at ARM architecture platforms. So if the strength of their emulator cores comes from ARM dynarec, their project has nothing to bring to our platform, which is MIPS.

The only cores that use dynarecs are Desmume and PCSX ReARMed - and no, you sending a unit would NOT MEAN we are going to write MIPS dynarec cores for you. I hope you didn't actually expect that - because if you do, then let me take it back - I am not in the least interested in getting a unit if those are the preconditions. What - you want to make it my problem that you didn't choose an ARM SoC like every other *sane* startup out there that has pretensions of wanting their own handheld with their own app store?

Sorry, but the more you talk about this project, the more I fail to see what kind of 'audience' this will actually attract.

If you launch with no GLES2 support, it will be way worse than any other competing handheld out there on the market right now. Which self-respecting game developer on Earth is going to resort to software blitting and software rendering in this day and age?

Come on - if you want to do this 'appeal to the developers' routine along with a custom 'app store' - you need to actually have something to offer. Offering a SoC with a gamepad bolted onto it but no GL ES 2 support is pretty much the same as expecting game developers to be attracted to a brick - the brick will still sink to the bottom of the ocean no matter how much you slice or dice it.

I also think that you are a bit 'pussy' about your stance regarding emulation - it reminds me too much of Blackberry World and Apple Store infact where you want to appear 'legitimate' or some crap like that. Sorry, but when a major player like Google allows this stuff, you as a tiny-little bitty startup need to take what you can get - you are not in a position to be making these kinds of stances.

Surkow

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 01:16:59 pm »
@Squarepusher2, there are quite a few misconceptions about the project. It might be easier to explain them to you directly (for example via IRC), instead of making unwarranted assumptions. We are not part of GCW as a company. We are a community of developers working on a niche product.

zear

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Re: Any developpers you think could be contacted to work on the Zero ?
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 01:17:57 pm »
And with that I'm going to close this thread.

 

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